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Episode Transcript

(Un)marginalised: S1, E3 with Sue – Episode transcript

“Shalom everybody. I’m Liel K. Bridgford, and this is (Un)marginalised. Please note that the following episode contains references to perinatal anxiety and depression, birth trauma, racism and ageism, so please take care as you listen. My guest this week is Sue. Sue is a mother of two children, a former engineer, and she’s from Chennai in South India. So thank you so much Sue for joining me today.”

“Oh that’s my pleasure Liel. It’s a privilege to be on your show.”

“Can you tell me and our listeners which intersection of diversity do you identify with?”

“I, obviously, the first thing that comes to my mind is that of a migrant. Someone who has come to Australia from the subcontinent. And, I carry with me my cultural identity as well. Other than that I, my, the strongest thing that I see myself as is being a mum, and a mum that’s gone through a rough time giving birth to both her kids, a mum with birth trauma. And also a mum with a perinatal depression and anxiety. I’ve had both antenatal and postnatal depression and anxiety. So, and it then comes to my profession. Both laugh. It’s a mixed bag, for me, comes after both these identities. I started off as an engineer. I loved the job, not that I didn’t like it. I worked in a few places,um, and I did well. But after my life experiences I got drawn towards psychology. And I’m trying to become a psychologist.”

“You know, when did you actually realise, that you were, kind of living through these intersections?”

“I mean, being a migrant um, was something that hit my face in the first week of coming to Australia. Because I was harassed racially on my first public transport trip, and I didn’t realise what was going on. Yeah. And that was the first time that I realised that I was different, to the people around me. And then when I became a mum for the first time I had gone through birth trauma, and I needed some explanation from the people who were working there, and I asked them what happened to me, can someone tell me what happened. And there was a lot of, I don’t know how I came across, because the people that spoke to me were very highly placed in the organisation and they kept referring to my race. They probably thought I felt racially alone or something, but i didn’t feel like that.”

“Wow.”

“So that’s when I noticed the intersectionality. Because to others I didn’t look like just a mum who’s just gone through birth trauma, and wanted answers, I looked like a mum from a minority as well. Yeah, and that was a revelation for me. Because I didn’t see myself as those two things put together, I saw them as different aspects of me, but.”

“Wow, that’s really interesting, and kind of confronting. So there’s a lot there that you said. So can i just go back to the experience of, on public transport, can you tell me what happened?”

“Yes, ah, we were looking to move houses, and we were just renting at the time, and I was, my husband was at work, he was in a different suburb, and I had to join him for one of those home inspections. So I took the public transport, I had, I mean, I had been overseas before, I didn’t come directly from India to Australia, I had lived in the UK for a while and I used public transport extensively there. So I thought I knew my way, I was pretty confident. But suddenly there’s something that hit my head. And I kept turning back and there was nobody, and I kept being hit again and again. And then a couple of kids, probably teenagers, probably around 13-15. They just started sniggering, and I didn’t realise what was happening and when they got up they said something about my clothes and the way I looked, and apparently they have been throwing peanuts or something.”

“Wow.”

“And they threw it on my face as well. It was a shock. I don’t know, because when I talked about it with my husband, he said probably the kids need help. They might be troubled kids or something, and so that sort of mellowed down the experience for me. To see it from their perspective as well, not just to feel the victim.”

“Yeah, absolutely, but I think it’s a really big thing and you know, that was the first week or week and a half after you just arrived to Australia, that must have been really shocking. And I think even though we say, we get told that all the time as a minority, or if we get bullied for whatever reason, we get told it’s their fault but just ignore it. And I think on the one hand I think it’s good that we can have that empathy for the other side. But at the same time, it’s not ok. You know, that’s really, a terrible experience for you, and I can’t imagine, that would have left you feeling all sorts of things about being in Australia, and being in public.”

“That is true. And I still worry for my kids, whether they would have to experience something of that sort if they ever use public transport for, by themselves. I mean every time, there was another experience with public transport as well, I was waiting at a bus stop, that was much later. And there was this old man, probably in his seventies or sixties, he just came up to me and just that I should going back on the boat. Um, I didn’t come by boat, I came by a flight, but they group us all in one bunch based on our colour or whatever. And he said that’s safer for me, and he worried for me. And…”

“That’s what he said, he was worried about your wellbeing?”

“Yeah.”

“And that was a random person that you did not know?”

“Yeah just a random person, an elderly person. I usually, I’m a bit soft with people who are older. Because um, my parents live on their own, overseas. And I usually imagine them to represent them in some way, because.”

“Yeah.”

“Yeah, and I’m quite soft with strange people as well. That was a shock to me coming from someone who’s demographic I respect deeply.”

“Well, firstly, how ignorant, and how rude. It’s just unbelievable. And those are the kind of microaggressions that people don’t realise how much um, minority groups experience still in Australia. That’s awful. And it makes it so hard to deal with as well because you think oh this person is really nice, is he being racist or not, like it can be confusing, did you find that?”

“Yes. I didn’t even know if I had to take offence to that.” Laughs.

“Ok.”

“I didn’t even know if I should call it racism. But it was in a certain way, but it wasn’t at the same time. Yeah.”

“Yeah, it’s complicated, it’s very complicated. And sounds like you didn’t really want to say anything at the time. Is that right? Like you didn’t know what to say as well?”

Laughs. “I didn’t say anything, and I didn’t want to say anything. Even though… I don’t think I would say anything. Because I don’t want to come across as someone um,, who is trying to push their views on people from a different generation. It’s very difficult. It happens with my parents as well. You have to pick your battles, it’s what I feel.”

“But it is a burden to carry, absolutely, that you go away and you think, you know, what do people think about me right now, what assumptions are they making about me?”

“Yeah, and you don’t realise that it’s not only from random strangers, it’s even from people from um, in a profession. Because I, whenever I had to deal with a doctor from a certain generation, I’ve had this experience, because, when I took my child to his first pediatric appointment, my husband is a bit darker than me in terms of skin colour, and he just took one look at us and he said – oh your son is really lucky to have you as parents, because he wouldn’t have to worry about skin cancer. Laughs. And that was a joke in his mind. But.”

“Yeah”

“We didn’t know how to react to that. We just, it was very awkward.”

“And it was the first time that you met this professional, as well?”

“Yes, the first time. But he was really nice to us, he was very professional, he’s a good doctor. But this entertained him, and I don’t know how people can find it funny, but they did.”

“Yeah. And that is the thing. People use humour as a way to degrade other people. And that is another one of those microaggressions that are so difficult to handle, because you know, people can then use that as an excuse, so easily, they can just say oh I was just joking, as if that makes it ok. Like, it actually does not make it ok.”

“And sometimes I don’t even realise they’re joking, because it wasn’t a joke to me.”

“Yeah exactly. With a professional, especially a medical professional, there is a power imbalance as it is. You know, as a patient, we’re coming in, and we expect the professional to give us the best advice, to look after our health, or our child’s health especially. And then for them to use, kind of these kind of aggression and racism, is just, it’s really wrong. And it’s puts us, it put you at an even more vulnerable position than you are as a patient in the first place.”

“Yes, that’s true. Because there was one other experience I know I’m going on with a lot of these stories.”

“No.”

“Yeah, you mentioned it’s the power imbalance. There was this time I was really worried about my health and I’ve seen a specialist. And he probably thought I could be anemic. And he was writing me a request for a test, a blood test. And I, I was just quite anxious at that moment, but he said I’m forced to write a blood test for you because of your skin colour. If it was someone with light skin I would just tell them they’re anemic the moment they walked in. And with you I’m not able to find out because your skin colour is hiding it. I mean, I, I know, there are doctors in countries with brown people. And they do diagnose anemia.” both laugh. 

“Yeah.”

“Seriously, I was quite anxious at that moment, and this comment was something I thought was wrong because I just thought he was doing it for my good. And he was the professional, and he’s suppose to be a professional, and whatever he says is professional, both laugh, but he wasn’t. Now these days, I find that for every person who thinks like that, you know, that it’s ok to be causally racist, there are people who are extremely cautious of what they’re saying, and I wouldn’t wish that on them as well. It’s ok, I can take a bit of racism if its done in the right sense. But I don’t want it to um, be as a constant reminder of that I’m different and I’m the outsider and I don’t belong.”

“Absolutely”

“That’s something that I’m quite concerned about, and I really think that talking about it is the way, like you said at the start of this podcast, is to just give space for those experiences and voices.”

“And you mentioned before, I’m really curious to hear, about the organisation after the birth, that they said that your race was a part of the picture, when you didn’t feel that it was. Can you tell me about that?”

“It was not, it was unique in the sense that they were trying to make me feel, um, included, probably, because they didn’t want me to feel alienated. But I wasn’t feeling alienated, because they specifically came and shared with me. After I wanted to hear the explanation, it didn’t happen before that. They were very curious about, ah, I mean, my mother was there and they were very curious about my culture, and they even wanted to say that they had lots of other people, minorities, come and um, use their hospital and they give birth there. Becuase that wasn’t the statistic that I was looking for. I was looking for a statistic that said how common is my birth trauma, because I didn’t want to know how common it is for women of a certain race to give birth at that hospital. It wasn’t what I was looking for, but it was a statistic that was offered to me as an explanation of my birth trauma, and I didn’t know where it fit in the picture.”

“So they said basically, because you, because of your culture, cultural background, that was the reason for experiencing birth trauma?”

“Probably that was the reason. They felt that I wanted an explanation and needed an answer because I was feeling like an outsider and I had some racial insecurity, which I did not have, and I still don’t have. Australia has been a great country. Despite these few incidents there has been so many instances where I have felt included. It didn’t strike me at that moment that i was an outsider, and I had to feel a certain way about being an outsider, which I didn’t.” both laugh. 

“You had to fit into their template of what it meant to be, you know, someone who isn’t white basically.”

“Yeah people assume things about you if you’re a minority. And one of it is that oh, they come from this group, maybe they’re feeling left out, and maybe they’re feeling um, a little bit um, sad and upset and they want answers. Why, should I address that as well?”

“Yeah.”

“Yeah, but it’s not that case, you know I’m just a person, and probably a user or a client of your services. And you should treat me like any other client.”

“Exactly.”

“And wanting feedback. I’m just wanting feedback from my experience, of my experience, not the experience of people from my cohort.”

“Absolutely. And that assumption, like so many assumptions aren’t’ they? About what you’re meant to feel, and you’re meant to feel exactly like other people from your cultural group are meant to feel, like we are all the same, like you’re all the same. Um, and people make such assumptions about lots of different minority groups. Every person with disability must hate, you know for myself as a disabled person, must hate their lives, you know. Must hate their body. And it’s like no, we have great lives, we love our lives, and I love my body. And you should have got the answers that you were asking for, and not, you know, that’s part of the reason for doing this podcast, is to kind of I guess, make people understand what it’s like to be in your shoes, and shoes of other people. Um, and, I’m wondering, do you think, as professionals, they wanted to support you in that moment and I’m wondering in a professional environment, if someone wanted to raise this issue with a client, do you think there’s a better way or more sensitive way to do that?”

“Maybe at that time just relating to my experience, I would have probably asked, wanted them to ask about how I felt, um supported. Not just assume things. Whether I really identified with that supposed sense of being a minority at that moment. I do identify with that but not at that moment. At that moment I was just a mum. Um, It’s probably good to check with the person before jumping to conclusions. And I know people are trying to be nice, but oftentimes that’s not useful.”

“That’s such great advice, just to listen, and not to make any assumptions, because we know all of us are changing at every moment. I know for me, I know that sometimes I identify as Israeli, and other times I don’t, and also sometimes I identify as a disabled person, other times I don’t think about it. So we really need to avoid making assumptions, because they can be damaging to listening to how someone is actually feeling in the moment. You know, we talked a lot about kind of what it’s been like for you as a woman of a minority, in lots of different contexts. I’m wondering, you know, you mentioned going through mental health issues after your births and while you were pregnant too. So can you tell me what it was like to kind of navigate that in the context of your culture?”

“Yeah. The biggest thing that I can think of is for me, I really didn’t have the vocabulary for what I was going through. In my culture we just associate anything that’s mental with physical symptoms, even the language is like that.”

“Ok, what do you mean?”

“For instance if you’re anxious we just say we have a tummy ache.”

“Ok.” both laughs. 

“Because you have butterflies in your stomach. We use the same word to express both the physical issue and the mental problem. So I really didn’t recognise it for a long time, um. When I finally did I didn’t have the vocabulary for it. Because I couldn’t communicate it to the people next to me or even if I had to see someone, professionally I didn’t know how to bring up the topic or even talk about it. Or that it needed the attention that it deserved. That was a big stumbling moment because of my culture and my upbringing. I do see things changing in my culture. I see a lot of my younger relatives talk about metal health much better than I did. But at the same time, there’s a generation gap. I can, I still don’t talk about what I feel with my parents. The irony is I took my dad to see a psychologist when I was going through antenatal PTSD, and he came with me, he had no clue who I was going to see, he sat outside waiting for me to come out.”

“Really? So he went with you to the office or the clinic? And he didn’t know what it was about?”

“No, and he still doesn’t know and it’s very hard. Even if I try to talk to them, they try to normalise it, saying that that relative had it, or this person they knew had it, and they were fine, and it’s nothing, there’s nothing that needs addressing, it’s just a natural transition in life, and different people react differently, you always been a sensitive child. They, they…”

“Oh really?”

“Yeah, things like that, which makes me doubt whether I’m exaggerating. Even now with my friends from my culture, if I try to talk about it, they quickly get traumatised. The moment I… it feels like you’re bringing down the vibe of the moment, or you’re just dampening the spirits of the occasion. But I meet them during some get together or parties, and if we find a quiet corner and we talk about things that are related to our life experiences, and if ever mental health comes up, no one wants to listen. Because it is a taboo topic.”

“Sounds like it was really difficult. Because that normalising can be minimising as well sometimes. Because people say oh, you know, it’s nothing, nothing to worry about. So what if you’re feeling really down, or really anxious, or whatever you’re experiencing is normal, then it doesn’t deserve any support.”

“Yeah, and people assume that there is a sentence that anxiety is connected to responsibility in the indian culture, it’s what I feel. Because if you don’t worry about things, you’re being laid back and lazy, that’s the general context.”

“Oh ok, yeah.” both laugh. 

“The worrior is seen as having a sense of responsibility about them. And that was a big learning for me to have, because I had never seen it as something wrong with me. It has always been a positive, on the other hand, being anxious. And people didn’t see it as a weakness, it was seen as a strength”

“That’s so interesting. So it’s actually encouraged in the Indian culture to be anxious.”

“And it was debilitating sometimes, even if it was debilitating, I thought it was something I was doing right.”

“It was still like a success, because you were being worried enough to care. Like worrying equals caring.” both laugh. 

“Yeah.”

“Yeah. and I think it’s like that in quite a few cultures, and families. You know, I know that for me, I had that mentality when I became a mum, and one of the first feelings I had for my child when I was pregnant was worry. Both laugh. And I remember one of my colleagues said well that’s the first kind of sign of attachment, you’re worried about your unknown child. But it was really, uncomfortable as well. Like there’s some worry that’s good, but there was some worry that really felt uncomfortable for me as well.”

“Yes. When I let go of that idea it was very difficult for my family to accept that, because they thought, something is wrong with me and I need to pay more attention to my mothering, or whatever that is.”

“Oh.”

“Yeah, even my dad, he, I remember the first time I left my kids with him to go to the gym, he literally harassed me. Laughs. He kept calling me every minute saying the baby’s crying, both laughing. where’s your responsibility, your mum never left you when you were this young. I thought that I was doing something wrong just by leaving my kids with someone for a few minutes with someone else.”

“That sounds like a lot of pressure.”

“Yeah, it was hard for them to understand that concept of self-care, although they practiced it in subtle ways themselves, because everybody is human.”

“Yeah, of course.” both laugh.

“But they don’t like that to be done explicitly.”

“Does it feel like there’s um, shame almost? Like looking after yourself is kind of shameful in a way?”

“It’s shameful, and it’s also, um, it’s mainly, I think, here I should say that I identify myself as a woman, because my culture is very patriarchal. And it’s alright for men to engage in self care, but the woman needs to, self-care is a big leap for a woman, whereas for men it’s just something they do.”

“And you know, patriarchy is still alive and kicking, I think in our culture too, here in Australia, but sounds like there’s quite a significant gap in the culture you come from, men have these privileges of being allowed to and even celebrated, to engage in self-care, and for women it’s absolutely shameful.”

“Yeah, but things are changing, and I’m glad about that. That people are pushing back.”

“Talking about these things, it’s so important. You know, you mentioned that you managed to let go of those expectations, of having to be anxious and not looking after yourself. How do you think you managed to do it?”

“I think, the first time I did that, I don’t know. Probably because, it came organically. I had to do it.”

“Ok, necessity.” both laugh.

“And I did little things, I didn’t take big steps, I did very small things.And initially it was hard for my husband to even relate to it. Because he also thought being a parent meant you had to be there all the time. But then I encouraged him to take care of himself. We started supporting each other, it felt nice. Moment it starts to feel nice, you’re more encouraged to engage in it more. Because it felt like this is what I was looking for all this time. That lightbulb moment.”

“Yeah, I matter.” both laughing.

“I matter, yes, I do.” both laugh. “And I’m a person and I exist here as me. It’s just that we come from a collective culture. We’re so enmeshed into this family, and sometimes wider society as well. And we tend to lose a sense of who we are. And then we got little snippets of time just to do that.”

“Yeah”

“It feels like, what a big relief.”

“That’s incredible. And so interesting you know the collective versus individualistic cultures. You know, I think the Israeli culture, when you rate it, it’s somewhere in the middle, so we have kind of both. I think the Australian rates very highly on the individualistic. But sounds like the Indian culture is more the collective. And that is a big gap, isn’t it?”

“But I love that aspect about Australian culture. Because I’m an only child and I really love being an only child, and I like the way Australians look after themselves and even I see a lot of old people being so independent, they just don’t want to be, be dependant on someone for anything, and nothing really gets them down, that’s what I feel, because when see people of a similar generation in India they feel old very early. They’re used to being taken care of by their children and looked after, they just don’t realise that they can do much more with their life. They sort of retire as soon as they are professionally made to retire. It’s just, they retire from life. Both laugh. I don’t see that in Australia at all, and it’s been so refreshing and inspiring for both me and my husband, because…whereas in India the moment you cross 30 you’re made to feel old.”

“Really? At 30?”

“Yeah, I see many friends in 30 who feel like, they’re actually called words like aunt, sister, or elder sister by strangers, because we have that practice of, it’s a form of, to refer to strangers as brother and sister and, just like we say bro, it’s something like that. Both laugh. So when you reach that stage and you hit 30, you’re referred to as an aunt. When I go back to India I’m called an aunt and it’s like, what, I don’t feel like that. And even when you go to a beautician, they give you recommended products meant for mature skin.”

“Really?” both laughing. 

“There’s no way I’m having this. I mean I’m much older than 30 now, but it started happening when I was 30. And it’s.”

“That’s incredible”

“And that’s amazing about Australia, because I think it’s a country where people stay forever young.” both laugh. 

“I love that idea, forever young in Australia.”

“Despite the sun I guess.” both laugh

“With a lot of sunscreen and a hat.”

“Yes.”

“We talked a lot about the external stigmas in your culture and Australia, and all of that. Do you feel that you’ve dealt with internalised stigma as well?”

“Yes, I refused to seek professional help. Although my husband was all for it. I refused to seek it, thinking that it would be a long-lasting stigma for me and my children and when they grow up and they have issues they’ll probably think that their mum gave it to them and things like that. So that stopped me from actually, although I knew I needed some support. It stopped me from getting it or taking it, so that was my first step. And then, I had to, it was a big deal because it’s ok for people in my culture to give their children diabetes or heart disease, but it’s not ok to give mental illness.” both laugh. 

“Ok.”

“But it’s perfectly fine, people just talk about my dad has diabetes, I have three generations of diabetes running in my family. Both laughing. It’s absolutely fine, but it’s not fine for anything else, to do with mental health.”

“Wow, that stigma, the taboo that you talked about.”

“Yes, and it’s, it was more than me, I was worried about my kids and what it means for them. Because my, as I said, my biggest identity as a mum. Once I became a mum, it was the biggest thing in my life, because of what I went through. And also my culture just makes it a big deal, because the mothers, we are all-sacrificing, goddess or whatever, laugh, the perfect being, or whatever. And I just, don’t like that idea. Or even of mother’s day, it just glorifies the mothers so much. Mostly just wanting to accept that and even talk about it with my children. I have significant trouble, I had significant trouble talking about it, about what I went through with my kids. When they see pictures of themselves in the early days, my son is not very clued on all this, but my daughter she is, she says why don’t you smile, why don’t you look happy in those pictures?”

“Really?”

“Yeah, and I don’t feel like I have to lie to her. Earlier I used to just avoid those questions. But now as she becomes older I just tell her that I was not well at the time and I became better. And then whatever was going on with me, a bit sad, or just explain my experience in a language that she would understand. Because I felt that I was being dishonest with my child about a very important question that’s very relevant to her. And it’s important that she knows what her mum went through. And that’s it’s ok for her to feel that way as well. It’s, I just wanted to send that message across.”

“Yeah. It’s so interesting what you said about, you know the glorifying of motherhood, and even what you said about mother’s day. Mothers having to be sacrificing everything to be a good mother. And it’s so much pressure. Because it’s not just that we get the credit, but you also get all the responsibility with that. You know, that you are responsible for every thing. And like you said, you’re expected to be there all of the time. And that is unrealistic for most people, and unhealthy.”

“Yeah, and it’s mothers day where mothers are taken care of and allowed time for themselves just for one day, it’s not fair.”

“One day in the year!” both laugh. “That is not enough. For anyone who is listening to this. It is not enough! And it’s so incredible that you’ve been able to talk to your daughter about it now, and I think that what you’re doing, is you’re breaking that taboo Sue.”

“Yeah, we are all allowed to have a cold, we’re allowed to have a sneeze, but we’re not allowed to feel depressed or anxious.”

“Yep.”

“I just don’t want my children to grow in an environment like that. Because I want them to know it’s ok to feel not ok.”

“Um, and I guess I’m curious, what do you find most interesting or exciting about navigating all those identities, and your life, I guess?”

“I feel that, all of us wear different hats, and sometimes what I find interesting is when I’m allowed to wear more than one. And I can take off one if I want, and I can put one on if I want, but, I don’t know if others see me, see my hats disappear or appear again, but for me they do, they are there, and they are not there. Coming back to your question, um, I don’t think I really realised that I was actually navigating these different identities until you mentioned it.”

“Yep.” both laugh. “The power of reflection, hey?”
“Yes, Yes. But coming to think of it, ah, I don’t think that’s been smooth. It’s been messy but it’s been wonderful at the same time.”

“Yeah.”

“It just defines me as a, as who I am uniquely. I’m proud of every badge that I wear, even ones that are not great. Because without those I wouldn’t be who I am. And I wouldn’t have the qualities that I have now. And I’m very thankful for those experiences. I didn’t, I don’t see myself reaching here if iI haven’t taken that path. I’m really proud to be here, right now, in this moment.”

“That’s incredible. What a great response. Um I’m wondering, you know cause we’re talking about the different hats, and taking them off and on. And you know, some people who identify with multiple minority groups feel that they don’t kind of fully belong in any of those groups. So for instance in her book The Pretty One, Keah Brown writes about feeling that she doesn’t fully belong to the black community, nor the disability community. Um, do you identify with that experience at all?”

“Yes I do, um, but what I would say is wherever I find myself belonging, it’s just for a certain part of me that belongs there. And I really treasure that sense of belonging. Whereas the other part of me that doesn’t fit there, it’s still deprived, but what I cherish here, I just want to cherish it fully, and then feed the other part later on wherever it feels belongs. Both laugh. Yes, but I do feel that, because I don’t feel like I fit anywhere 100%, and it makes it interesting, because I don’t want to be blanketed with one hue, I like to be someone with different shades, it makes me more complex, and more serious I guess.” both laugh. 

“Absolutely, so much to you Sue. I know I have that experience too, you know. Like if I meet Israelis now I’m like oh yeah, I feel a kind of sense of belonging. But some parts of me don’t feel like that, because i feel like very much a melbournian now, and kind of Australian too, so that doesn’t fit. And, um, disability is quite a taboo culture still, like, not really talked about, so then I can’t really talk about that part of myself. So yeah, you need to also for yourself, find ways of nourishing all these different parts of yourself.”

“Yeah, but sometimes, like I mentioned, it’s hard, you really have a strong feeling when belonging somewhere, to want to open up, and speak about the whole of you, you want, you really want that sense of being there 100%, but it’s not possible. You just have to remind yourself that this is not the time or space for that. You got to keep the child inside you quiet. That wants to be part of the group. But it’s not, it’s just a learning. It’s just a part of being a complex adult. We’re all complex beings, we’re not simple.”

“You know but sometimes, um, maybe you need to underplay or hide parts of yourself. Is that right? That’s kind of what I’m hearing.”

“Yes. You’re very right, Liel. I recently had an experience as well, because where I had to, be, a discussion of a few people talking about their birth experience. And I had to just pick the parts which will not traumatise others. Probably my way of caring for them. But I have to, even the parts that were very traumatic to me, I had to um, use a different language, I had to make it funny.”

“Oh really?”

“Yeah. On one way it was healing for me, because I learned to look at my experience from a different perspective. But it’s not that the, it’s not, it is hard, just trying to be totally honest. You’ve got to be very tactful in places like that. Because, merely for the fear that you don’t want to lose that sense of belonging, that you already have. You don’t want to ruin something good by bringing something new.”

“Yeah, absolutely. And there is, that’s so interesting that there is a fear. That you know, if you fit into this group, at least part of you fits in and feels included, then you don’t want to feel completely excluded. So maybe that is a reason sometimes for hiding parts of us, or who you are. And you know, it is, it’s a real fear. It’s based in reality. I think it’s important for people to understand that it’s based on your experiences of getting, you know, food thrown at you in the bus, and people down playing your mental health. And so of course you’d be worried about feeling excluded and um, being alienated as well.”

“That’s true. Yeah. I find it strange sometimes when, I find it actually, undeveloped, for myself. Because whenever I’m in other settings and people refer to my background, even in a positive way, I don’t know how far of my background that I can share. And what is, I always think about the audience. It’s not free for me, I don’t want to share freely. But see what is acceptable for this group. And is it ok for me to talk about this here. It’s just that, the background process that goes in my mind. It’s the constant editing that happens.”

“Yeah.” both laugh.

“You think of saying something, and you proofread it in your mind, and then, and then you edit it, then change it to something else.”

“Yeah, I love that. It’s so important. I think it happens for so many of us. But it is also exhausting, you know?”

“Yes, it is, it is.”

“Because sometimes you just want to have a chat, and relax, and whatever, and that’s a lot of work to go into, just what do I share here?”

“But in certain conversations where identities clash, that’s where I feel like I have, I should have done better, I should have done this. In others, it’s usually in places where you have people from different parts of your identity there, where you relate to both of them, although in different ways. But you got to engage with both. That’s, that’s very challenging position for me.”

“There’s edits ready for, you know the mum friends, and edits ready for the Indian friends, and edits ready for the…both laugh. Um, then all of a sudden, they come together, and what do you do with that? “

“Yeah, it’s hard, it’s hard, but it’s interesting, I mean. Intersectionality as you, I have not heard of the term until you talked about it. but,”

“Really?”

“No I haven’t.” Both laugh. “But it makes so much sense to me now, and I feel like I was being pulled in different directions. Now I know that I’m one piece. Just with that word, that defines what I was going through.”

“Interesting, cause I was actually going to ask, and maybe that’s a part of the answer, but maybe you have more to add, what does intersectionality mean to you?”

Both Laugh. “It didn’t even exist in my vocabulary until now, but now I really love the word, because it explains to me a lot of things that I was going through. And it’s, intersectionality to me means that I’m not pulled in all directions, but I am a part of both. It’s like I have a feet in the bedroom and a feet in my study, and I have, I am in my house, it’s my house, it’s just different rooms in my house. It’s not that I am um, I am, being dragged here and made to let go of the other, intersectionality it’s something that allows me to be part of both. It has its challenges no doubt, but it also has its benefits”

“I’m curious, you know, when we’re recording this it’s December 2020. It’s been a very tough year for so many of us, with Covid, with lockdowns, with border closures, and more. So, did it have do you think, particular challenges or highlights for you this year?”

“Yes. This year, was a bit too much. Because we lost a family member and we had to do a virtual funeral, and that didn’t even feel like we were a part of the family. And um, because of the restrictions we couldn’t go. Even now, even after the lockdown has been lifted, I feel like our lives are not the same,and it’s never going to be the same. Merely for the fact that we have gone through this. And not being able to, I usually visit my family once a year. And not being able to go there, feels strange, and usually go there for Christmas. And feels sad that we can’t go, and.”

“Of course.”

“Yeah, it’s a strange time, it’s a strange time to, I mean I, there’s been births in the family, death in the family. It’s a strange time to be living. It’s not a strange time just to experience a certain experience. It’s just a strange time to be.” 

“Absolutely. And completely agree with you. You know, life is never going to be the same, and that’s positive and negative too. And um, it leads me to my next question, because I really relate to the idea that we’re going to build our society, not from scratch, but we have an opportunity after Covid to change, um because things are starting again almost. So what do you think needs to change in our society, to make your life, and the lives of others who are navigating intersectionality, better?”

“I think that ah, assumptions, and what people assume about you or your identity, that needs to, come down. Because, as humans, it’s our tendency to simplify things and put things in boxes. So that we don’t have to spend too much time thinking. And we do that about people as well. Yeah, I think that needs to reduce. Because that’s what is the problem. Because it’s not hard for our children. Schools especially, I think, it’s the starting point, and I think we are doing a good job these days, where things about identity and intersectionality need to be introduced, because kids also simplify things, it’s’ not just the older generation, they also tend to simplify things.”

“Of course”

“But it’s the people, like us, who are in the middle of the age line, that hold big responsibility, in shaping.”

“Exactly”

“I think schools are a big starting point for our society to think of even making a change.”

“Absolutely, well said Sue. Thank you, that’s really good, really good points. You mentioned a few things that you’re proud of Sue, but I’m wondering if there was anything that you wanted to share, some things that you’re most proud of?”

“The thing that I’m most proud of, is being here, being here, I mean all of us should be proud of it. Because we’ve gone through two waves, and we’ve gone out of it. I mean Covid has given us so much to be proud of. It’s just living through this year makes us part of history. And it’s a privilege just to go through this. I mean we deserve a place in history as well for being a part of a population that went through a significant global trauma.”

“Absolutely.”

“And we’re pulling, we’re just showing the strength of humanity. And we’re showing the good, bad and ugly. There’s places things have been bad,”

“Yes.” both laugh.

“They have, big time. And we’re also seeing places, with very incredible stories, I mean stories that are emerging. And i’m very proud, I mean, despite what my individual experience might be, I’m really proud of being part of this collective.”

“My very last question for you Sue. If there’s anyone listening today to this who is struggling to navigate intersectionality, what message do you have for them?”

“Well just be proud of wearing all your hats, and be, and feel free to take them off and put them on anytime you want. Never give up that freedom, to wear them and take them off as you feel, it’s very easy to feel tired, and give up that freedom. But it’s something that’s very precious and not, worth fighting for.”

“Um, what an incredible chat we’ve had Sue. Wow. I am overwhelmed by how much you’ve shared, and how many different topics we’ve touched on!”

“Yes.”

“In one chat, it’s amazing.”

“I’ve learned a lot about myself thanks to you.”

“Oh, laughs, that’s good.”

“Ah, well, it’s been a great honour to be featured on your podcast. And I really really enjoyed this time, and I hope your podcast becomes a big success and you get a lot of, a lot of interesting people and voices that, you get to feature in your show. And the human experiences are so complex and unique, and I am, really really impressed by the effort that you’ve taken to give space for those voices, because,”

“Thank you Sue.”

“We all get boxed into numbers and statistics and categories, but giving, untangling all that, and just, giving, serving that in a wonderful buffet of human experiences is what you’re doing, and I like, really appreciate the effort.”

“It’s been such a pleasure. Thank you.

I like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I’m recording the podcast, the Warranjri people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respect to their elders past, present and emerging. As we tell our stories, I want to highlight that traditional owners of this land have been storytellers for generations.

Like this show? To support the ongoing making of this podcast, go to my Patreon account, on www.patreon.com/LielKBridgford. You can also just make a one time donation on my blog. Go to http://lkbridgford.com/support-me and don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast. Until next time.”