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Episode Transcript

“Shalom everybody, I’m Liel K. Bridgford, and this is (Un)marginalised. My guest this week is Jen. Jen is a musician, a photographer, writer, stylist, videographer, a lover of cats, and a receiver of a late autism diagnosis. Before we begin, please note that the following episode contains references to mental health issues, ableism, and family violence, so please take care as you listen. Welcome Jen, and thank you so much for coming.”

“Hi, thanks so much for having me, very excited.”

“Me too. So, to start our chat Jen, can you tell us what intersections of diversity do you identify with?”

“Yeah, the three big ones are – I identify as a musician. Um that’s kind of my career path and lifestyle. I identify as a woman, and more recently I identify as a disabled person. “

“And I’m really curious to hear, because as you know I’ve lived with a disability my whole life. And you had a very late diagnosis. How that was like for you, receiving a late diagnosis and how has that impacted your sense of identity and I guess your life as well? “

“Yeah, so in my case um, I was diagnosed with Autism two years ago at the age of 25. And this diagnosis had come after a more than ten-year journey begging mental health professionals to give me any sort of support. One of my earliest memories of high school is figuring out that there was a school counselor. And then, as soon as I figured that out, I was in their office, making appointments, being like, there is something drastically wrong here. I feel sad all the time, and anxious, and I’m not coping. Help, please. And that was kind of a pattern all through my university and then through the beginning of my professional life as well. Seeking out those resources and being rejected because I’m just depressed or just anxious, um.”

“Yeah, and you’re using quotation marks around that. So that’s what you’ve been told by mental health professionals since you were in high school?”

“Yeah, then with the diagnosis, learning about others’ lived experience has quite literally been life-changing for me. I just happened upon a blog post written by somebody. She talked about how the medical health professionals had missed her autism which was quite obvious. Because it doesn’t present in the way that psychologists are used to in women. So ah, the current model is based of a lot of research done on young boys. And when it comes to young girls it presents in a very different way. And I just read this list and I was like, oh ok, this person is quite literally me.” Giggles.  

“That’s a really important point about you know research and what the knowledge is about mental health but also health in general. So much of the health research throughout history has been on males a lot of the time, and we have so little understanding about female bodies and minds. So what happened for you in terms of your identity, since you started reading and connecting as well with lived experience?”

“There have been two major outcomes from getting an Autism diagnosis. The first was, for the first time ever, having my experience and the struggles that I went through ah, acknowledged and legitimised. Turns out I wasn’t just being fussy and I wasn’t being ridiculous. It’s just the way I am. The second thing has been dealing with a lot of anger, specifically towards those who are in positions of power, mostly educators and medical health professionals. Laughs. Which, I’m sure you can relate to the medical health professional part definitely.”

“Yep.”

“I shouldn’t have to beg to be believed. And that has definitely been my experience.“

“Those are very two different outcomes. And I have seen a lot of dismissal of especially women’s mental health in my career. And I guess the words that you use, I find that really powerful, those words like ridiculous and being fussy, and they’re so stigmatising. And I just, firstlyI  just want to say that I’m sorry that the health professionals haven’t given you what you deserve to get for all those years. “

“Thank you.”

“You should’ve got much better than that.”

“It’s really nice talking about this with other people who understand, other people who have been through a similar experiences. There’s almost like, a solidarity in, yeah I’m gonna call them traumatic medical experiences.”

“I totally agree with that description. My kind of main experience, which is different. But the first thing that comes to mind for me in terms of the medical, you know, not being believed, I’ve had so many experiences like that about pain growing up. So I would yell, like literally yell that this is really painful, and I would get laughed at, like literally nurses and doctors would laugh at me that you can’t feel it. And then they would get down, that was when they were cutting a cast off once. And once they got the cast off they saw they did cut into my leg, but they didn’t believe me, that’s just one example. But I agree with the sense of solidarity. That, it does upset me to hear that you and other people have experienced similar things but at the same time I feel that coming together and having these conversations, this is so powerful, and is the way forward.”

“Yeah. Yeah, um, it also hurts to hear that you’ve been through similar things.”

“Anger is a really difficult emotion to deal with, especially when it’s kind of directed at past experiences that we already have kind of lost control over. How have you been dealing with that, if at all?”

“Not very well, quite honestly.” Liel giggles. 

“Um, so I think it’s really important to talk about where a lot of the anger comes from. As a musician a large part of my job is spent passing on the craft to other people. So ah, I like to say that my job is trying to teach tiny children how to play the flute. Laughs. Which is my instrument.”

“That’s a very cool job by the way, as a side note.”

“Um, yeah, since teaching these kids I have had to develop all these different strategies and ways of thinking about the craft, and tailor that to each student that I meet. And figuring out how every student learns is definitely the source of my anger. Just realising how much was missed by the educators that saw me through my education.”

“So you feel that what you’re doing now wasn’t really done properly, for you?”

“Yeah, there are just some really key points, um, that I can think of, in my education that could have been handled very differently. Just contextually, every time I have to sit down to work on an assignment, I have an anxiety attack. Multiple sessions of tears, big meltdowns, and it’s only getting worse. And that stems from a lot of teachers putting me in the ‘oh you’re not good at that box’ and then deciding that their effort was wasted on my learning.” 

“That’s a horrible thing for a kid to hear.”

“Yeah, and it really sucks watching my students be traumatised in the same way. There have been a number of students who, they’re not naturally academically gifted. They’re lovely kids and they try really hard. But that hard work doesn’t translate into measurable success that their teachers would like to see. And there was this one student who I took for two years and she started out as like this bright, confident kid, who was just full of energy and excitement and just stoked to be at school every day. And then by the time our time had come to an end, she just checked out because she didn’t really wanna be at school cause what’s the point of going to school if you’re just going to get in trouble every day and be put at the bottom of the class and singled out because you’re not doing well.”

“It really saddens me to hear that that’s still happening.”

“Yeah.”

“And that sounds really hard for you Jen in terms of the repeat of that trauma.”

“It’s definitely full on. And it’s one of the things that’s on my work on this with my therapist list.”

Liel giggles. “Yepah, has that been helpful? Do you feel that there’s been a shift since your diagnosis? Has it been more effective for you to get support or easier, or anything like that?”

“There’s been parts that are easier and parts that are harder. Having a diagnosis on a piece of paper that I can take to a medical professional or a mental health professional and say look, somebody gave me the stamp of approval that says you actually have to help me. Um, that’s got me into seeing a really good psychologist and it also led to, for the very first time, a doctor taking me seriously. The tricky part I have found is engaging with the disability safety net. I am on the NDIS, which is the national disability insurance scheme. And I feel very lucky to be on it now, but the process of getting on that was horrible. They kept losing my paperwork, and shifting me around to various places. I almost quit about six times and the only reason I didn’t is because my parents stepped in on my behalf and finished the application process. After getting a new psychologist and starting to work with an occupational therapist, I have been told that I should have received a lot more funding for support. Now I have just began to undertake the application process for the disability support pension, because I have reached a point with my work where if I work three days a week, I can’t cook, clean, do the washing, and also turn up for work the next week. Let alone focus on any of my artistic pursuits which is what I actually wanna be doing for a living.”

“I’m so glad that you’ve had your parents’ support in terms of stepping in and finishing the applications. But a lot of people wouldn’t have that option, and a lot of people would quit and also a lot of people wouldn’t actually get the support, or the sufficient support that they need. That’s a big burden, on top of all the other things that you’re kind of managing.”

“Yeah, just to go back to your point about all of the people who don’t have the same support network that I am lucky to have. I think about that all the time. I personally know a lot of people who are in a similar situation to me and it took them twice as long to get the same supports as I did.”

“Right.”

“And they managed to get through the application process. How many other people have just slipped through the cracks in the system?”

“What you received your diagnosis, in terms of representation. Because up until the point of getting a diagnosis, I’m assuming most of the information or knowledge that you’ve had about autism was through media or some people you knew, is that right?”

“Yeah. I ah, I can’t say that I knew much about autism through the media. I like to describe my um, participation in popular culture as there is a rock and I am underneath it.” laughs.

“Ok.” laughs. 

“I’ve missed a lot.” Liel laughs. “But I’ve had a few friends who had, still have autism, ah, they’re men now. And they present in what would be the medically appropriate way for the diagnosis.”

“Do you feel that your perception of autism has changed?”

“Yeah, definitely. Autism, and through the larger network um neurodiversity, I think, and I don’t have any research to back this up because I’m not a professional. But from the lived experience I’ve been engaging with, it seems to be a disability that if you are, in some ways lucky enough and other ways unlucky enough to have the skills, you can appear to be completely, I’m gonna use the word normal, even though I don’t really like it, but I think it’s a term everybody understands.”

“Yeah.”

“Yeah, you can appear to be completely normal. It’s definitely an invisible disability. That’s kind of what makes it so difficult, cause you can’t see it, you can’t touch it, you can only describe it, and if you describe it to the wrong person they’ll invalidate you.”

“Have you made a connection with the disability community at all since your diagnosis?”

“Yeah, I’ve just started to dip my toe into a few different spaces. So there are some lovely Reddit groups, one of them is called Aspie girls I think, there’s a couple of Facebook groups. But then I personally know five other women who have had very similar experiences to me. Four of these women have been formally diagnosed, and one of them hasn’t been able to pursue a diagnosis because currently the average price of diagnosis in Australia is $2000.“

“Massive price tag, you would need to fund in order to get a diagnosis. And obviously diagnosis is really pivotal in getting supports and all of that. And an important point that obviously a lot of people wouldn’t have that, those funds in order to do that, especially people from marginalised communities as well, so people who would be from low socioeconomic status, or migrants on different visas etc.”

“Yeah.”

“Would be much less likely to be able to get that, and then the disadvantage kind of amplifies with that. I wanted to ask you about gatekeeping, because some people. And you have listened to the first episode with Emily McIntyre who talked about gatekeeping in some of our communities. Have you experienced any gatekeeping yourself?”

“Gatekeeping seems to be a lot more of an issue in the mixed gendered spaces that I’ve engaged with. The women and non-binary spaces, at least in my expeirece, they’ve been very focused on inclusivity and intersectionality. So the philosophy of the two Australian autistic women’s Facebook groups I’m a part of, the philosophy is, everybody has their own way that they like to identify. The two big ones are person-first language versus identity-first language. So, if you’re a person who prefers person first language go for it, if you prefer identity first language go for it, but don’t correct other people on how they choose to identify. And I suppose I haven’t seen the gatekeeping.”

“I’m glad to hear that. And also I think really important point about not correcting other people’s ways of identifying. I’ve been getting that. I’ve had someone, I think it was a parent, contacted me once and said: don’t use the word disabled it’s really outdated. And it took me a few days to recover from that message even to be able to help her, ah, respond to her sorry. And I had to write a complete blog post about it, because I was so angry. Laughs. And I was like this is why I say disabled, and there’s a reason for it, and don’t correct me, thank you very much. Laughs. Now, you’re a multidisciplinary artist, which quite is amazing”

“Oh thank you.”

“I’m very impressed.”

“In terms of your identity and your diagnosis, can you notice any changes in your art, significant changes that happened in terms of the way that you practice or your themes that you engage with, or anything like that?”

“Yeah. So the most notable change has been in my writing, like my words writing. It comes out in two ways. My blog posts, which I would describe as highly political, laughs. Although also not as political as I would like them to be. And then in a metaphorical context, my songwriting.”
“Beautiful.”

“There’s a song that I wrote recently. It’s called Make Space. And um, the song itself is singing about I don’t know, I’m a planet, and I am orbiting, things, and there’s a spaceships, space, stars, all that sort of jazz. Liel laughs. Um, but the place it came from was this overwhelming feeling that for me to flourish as a person I can’t feel like I have to force my way into spaces. I need to feel like somebody has made that space for me.”

“That’s a very beautiful description and I think it’s, would feel very relatable for a lot of people. Because as someone who comes from a population that’s been, I use the term historically marginalized, but it’s not really historically because it’s still current. Laughs. You know, there has not been spaces for voices like your voice. And, can you come to Melbourne and perform it please?” laughs. 

“It’s in my plans.”

“Ok.”

“I’m waiting for COVID to be less covidy before I commit to booking gigs in other states, but it’s on the long-term plan.”

“Ok, so you’ve written before about stigma, because I’ve looked at your blog quite intently the other day. And, a particular line… Not in a creepy way. And a particular line from that specific post stood out to me. And if you don’t mind I’m gonna read it out.”

“Yeah, go for it.”

“Ok. ‘My experience of stigma is never being able to exist as yourself safely in a majority of spaces. It’s not feeling safe to reach out to systems and supports that are suppose to be able to help you, because the label carries more risk than suffering in silence and pretending to be fine. It’s watching people exhaustingly raise awareness all the time, yet not seeing politicians makes systemic changes that will actually help.’ You have wrote this Jen at the start of the year I believe.”

“Yep.”

“And we are recording in April.”

“Yes.”

“Firstly it’s a beautiful passage and that’s why I wanted to read it out.”

“Thank you.”

“Thank you for writing it. And also, can we talk about the time between the day between the time that you published that, or wrote that and today. Because right now we are talking openly, and publicly. Both laugh. About labels. It’s very different.”

“Yeah.”

“So do you feel that there’s been a shift, or is it still a process, how has it happened?”

“It’s definitely still a process. When I wrote that blog post. I say when like something has changed in my mental health state. Ah, I’m’ still currently in a really dark patch, and have been for over fifteen years now. Giggles. So that particular dark patch, it came out of the knowledge that I would have to return to my workplace after school holidays and go back to fitting into a neurotypical existence. Because mentioning my mental health state and my disability to my workplaces carries the risk of being dismissed with not much notice. Which is a reality for a lot of people who are casually employed, or grey area employed. At the time, there was some government thing, it was something to do with, oh everyone’s feeling real sad after 2020, so here is some government ads about how you can call Lifeline or Beyond Blue and it’s gonna be fine. I’ve just seen too many campaigns that haven’t resulted in any change for myself or the people that I know that have complex Mental health issues. When you have mental health issues you’re more likely to be poorer, you’re more likely to have a horrible quality of life. It almost feels like a lot of the systems that have been put in place for mental health would just kind of rather you just stopped existing and didn’t engage with them. Because then they have to put in effort to give you a better quality of life, therefore you are a drain on the system, therefore just go away.”

“And I guess I’m curious about what made you want to share more publicly some of those experiences? Because obviously there is a huge risk. And it’s very much important to note about unstable work arrangements, however discrimnitation does happen in very established positions as well. So you know, what has made you want to talk about it?”

“So there are two, um, a lot of twos tonight. Liel laughs. There are two very distinct reasons why I wanna talk about my experience. The first one, is a few years ago I listened to a podcast by a creator called Ona Istli, um she did a podcast with the ABC called no feeling is final. She was telling her own story of struggling with her mental health, which is pretty similar to mine. And a very abridged version of her story is – she went to a lot of therapy and spent a lot of money on mental health professionals, and her mental health only got worse. Hearing that made me feel a lot less alone, and in some strange way a little less broken. Because if I’m broken enough that the system can’t help me. But then there are also heaps of other people who are broken enough that the system can’t help them, maybe it’s not us, it’s the system. Um, cause the system is the common denominator there. And the advertisements for you know Lifeline and Beyond Blue and are u ok day is – reach out, and we’ll help you and fix it but, I have been reaching out for more than fifteen years and, my mental health isn’t really getting any better. So, yeah, there’s a safety in numbers there.”

“I have felt the same in a lot of ways when I’ve been connecting with lived experience  and it’s quite. I’m almost blown away every time because our, like yours and my diagnosis are so different, however our experiences are so similar, and I found that mind blowing.”

“It shouldn’t be similar experiences either. Your issues stem from a tangible body part and mine come from cells firing in the brain. Yet the medical history of not being believed is exactly the same there.”

“There is that hope for me that you listened to that podcast and then here we are today. I’m sure there’ll be at least one if not many more people who listen to this and feel that finally there was someone out there who has had the same experience, so I think that’s really fantastic. Also, I am very sorry that that has been your experience with the system, because that is a big chunk of time, fifteen years.”

“Yeah, it’s, and unfortunately it’s all too common. “

“When I read out the passage that was a particular dark patch, and there’s today’s dark patch. Do you feel that it’s changing in any way? In the texture or colour of it? To the better or worse, or just sideways, or anything like that?”

“I like that term sideways. It definitely moves sideways. Um, sometimes there’s a really tangible reason behind my feelings and I can really pinpoint it and then take actionable steps to help. Sometimes I just feel deeply, darkly sad in a way that I just can’t explain and there’s no reason for me to feel this way, and I just do. I think that sadness is the hardest to deal with. I haven’t found a way out of it, which is very hard. And I suppose I have learnt to live with it, but that’s kind of not good enough anymore. I, I think it’s really important to mention that I had a significant relationship a number of years ago, and he was financially and emotionally abusive. Existing in that relationship, was me existing in a very dark place that was dark for a reason that was difficult to pinpoint. When I did pinpoint it I was thankfully in the position that I could leave. Saying this it still took me six months to leave that relationship. And after I left that, I decided that existing with that sort of emotional pain was no longer good enough, and that’s when I really started working towards sorting out my mental health.”

“So the first thing I would say is thank you for sharing Jen. That’s a very important thing to talk about, and a very difficult thing to talk about. And also, I am sorry that he did that to you.”

“Yeah, thank you. It’s really important to talk about. Again, one of the big reasons I was able to leave is because other women had shared their experiences of abusive relationships on the internet and I looked at them and I was like oh cool, that’s my relationship, great, I need to leave this now. That kind of sucks.”

“Wow.”

“Yeah, it’s still one of the hardest things I’ve ever done.”

“We talked about some campaigns and stuff like that, and we’re talking about lived experience being shared. So there’s a lot of awareness raising I feel, that the focus is much more on awareness raising. How do you feel about the relationship between awareness raising, acceptance and support.”

“With the awareness raising campaigns I have seen. I think the reality is that there is this disconnect between the awareness and the support. Um, and in terms of my own experience with acceptance, I think the difference the awareness campaigns have made with acceptance is people know it exists now, however they don’t really wanna engage with it. There was a very short period of time in my early 20’s where I decided for a month that I would be radically honest.”

“Yeah.”

“It did not go well.” laughs. 

“Ok.” laughs. 

“Ah, I had some colleagues say to me, I’m a bit worried about you, and that’s when I decided no more honesty, that’s not something I can be.”

“Ok.” both laugh.

“There’s a very specific facial expression people make when they greet you with how are you, and you tell them how you actually are.”

“Yep.”

“It’s a strange look.”

“Like this?”

“Yeah, it’s like that.”

“I am just making a really confused facial expression, that’s what I was going for.” laugh.

“Shocked and confused. Sometimes mixed with a little bit of, oh that’s a bit offensive, cause now I have to  – care.”

“Yeah. laughs. Absolutely. And actually this is something really interesting about, sorry to interject Jen.”

“No, go for it.”

“For me, cause I wasn’t born in Australia. And in my country, we don’t really say how are you as a greet, we kind of say something that would translate roughly to what’s up. So you don’t just walk down the street and say to someone how are you? So when I came to Australia, random people would meet me at like bus stops, and coffee shops and say how are you, and I was completely, didn’t know what to say. I was really suspicious of that. I was like, why are these random people asking how I am, what do they want from me. They’re trying to like rob me, or get me to sign something. Because they obviously don’t want to know how I am.”

“I think that’s the appropriate reaction to that question as well.”

“Yeah. In the episode that’s actually gonna be released tomorrow, I’m actually talking about this to someone else in America. So it’s really interesting how I think the Americans and the Australians both do this how are you, but not actually wanting to hear anything. So let’s change that shall we, if you don’t want to hear how someone is, don’t say how are you, just say hi.”

“Yeah. I do want to share my perfect reply to this question.”

“Go for it”

“So the reply that I give when I am asked how are you. I say either I’m going, or I’m here. And that lets the other person know that I have shown up to do whatever it is I’m gonna do, but ah, anything else is not really their business.”

“I like that.”

“I’m really tired of pretending to be fine when I’m not fine. It’s not their business if I’m not fine, it’s also, it shouldn’t be placed upon me to make them feel comfortable by replying with the socially acceptable script.”

“Absolutely. Now can you talk about working in the educational system. Because my experience as a kid in the educational system in Israel was completely inaccessible. And now as a parent, looking into putting my child into the schooling system in Australia, and I’ve been to a couple of school tours. And I was triggered particularly in one of the schools that I went to, because it was so inaccessible that I was just, really upset.” Laughs.

“Yeah.”

“That it’s been, I am thirty two next month, and accessibility is still something that we have to fight for in the education system. So, that was a long story to ask you – how has it been working with what you describe as an invisible disability in that system?”

“It’s been pretty tricky to navigate. I spend seventy percent of my work days in a place where I am not cognitively functioning very well. These are days when I can barely string two sentences together, and I have to show up and be professional in front of the children, and be a together, fully functioning human adult, and I’m just not. Ah, they don’t know that, thankfully. Both laugh. The children’s welfare has to come first, which I totally agree with, and I think that’s, that should be very obvious to anybody who works in education. The issue is that working a job like the one I’m working, compromises my own welfare. Specifically navigating all the different school cultures and rules, also overarching workplaces. I work for multiple schools under the umbrella of a couple of different organisations. And it’s like, I’ve got the workplace who sends me out to the other workplaces, who all have their own rules and stuff. So I’ve got like ten different sets of rules to deal with. At its height I think I was going to eight or nine different schools a week.”

“Wow.”

“And I was working for two difefernt companies and one of those schools, I was freelance as myself.”

“Very complicated.”

“Yeah. There’s a lot of unpaid work that goes with that employment structure as well. Every business that you’re working for expects you to be doing all this unpaid admin and it kinda comes under the umbrella of – but you’re a musician, you love it. You should feel lucky to have this job because you get to work with music.”

“I don’t even have enough understanding of the system to say anything that would make a lot of sense. But I do have a few friends who are teachers in Australia, and I found that it gets me really angry when I hear about the amounts of unpaid work that they do. And all of those friends are females, and something about the fact that this is a mainly female field makes it possible for this to still happen. And I think that for you being a musician and being a woman with a disability on top of that, it is kind of another layer of marginalisation in a way.”

“It’s nice to hear from somebody whose not working in education that it makes them angry too, cause it makes me incredibly angry. In some regards, I am lucky that I’m not a salaried employee, employed through the department of education. Because the workplace those teachers are expected to take on out of school hours is pretty gross. Because I’m a casual employee, now that I have started putting my own welfare above my ability to stay employed, it’s been a lot easier to just say not my monkeys not my barrel.” Laughs. 

“Nice.”

“Hasn’t gotten me into trouble yet which is nice, but I’m waiting for it, I’m waiting for the trouble to follow.”

“I bet. And one thing that gets me very angry with that as well is, I have friends who are in I guess a senior teaching position, and in order to remain in those positions they have to also engage in extra curricular activities that occur at nights and weekends.”

“Yep.”

“And as a parent, and as a disabled woman, I just feel so suffocated by that concept to be honest. Giggles. Because it is so ableist to say you have to be there on a night, after you’ve worked all day, and also you get paid for three days, but you actually work six days of. How is that ok?”

“Yeah.”

“It’s very ableist.”

“I agree. The department almost expects to own all of their time. Which obviously for anybody who is disabled that doesn’t work. It also doesn’t work for parents. And I just think we lose valuable diversity. Everything starts with education. It’s how you shape generations and it’s how you shape the future of humanity. And it’s such a cliche, but it’s a cliche for a reason.”

“Yep.”

“And how is the disabled kid in year two suppose to shape their career if the only other adults they see other than their parents are teachers, and all of their teachers are young, able-bodied, and in some schools they’re only white teachers too.”

“Absolutely agree. Now as a parent, have you got any hope for me?”

“I do.”

“Ok, laughs. Tell me about it.”

“If you can afford it, my recommendation is ah, send your kids to a steiner school.”

“Really? Ok.”

“They’re the only place where the teachers and students aren’t miserable.”

“Right. Um, any hope in the public system?”

“Not that I can tell.”  both laugh.

“No? Ok. next question. Both laugh. I am wondering, one thing I didn’t ask you about is Jen, is what does intersectionality mean to you?”

“Oh, I love this question. It’s such a great question.”

“Thank you, I wrote it myself.” Laughs. 

“I love it. laughs. To me, intersectionality is consciously observing and accepting that the world is a very complicated place and using that observation and acceptance to build a world view that encompases all of your knowledge and changes as your knowledge changes.”

“Beautiful Jen. Now before we finish, can I just quickly ask you about your fashion, because you make incredible clothes. Can people buy your clothes, are you making them just for you, what’s the main inspiration at the moment, tell me about it.”

“Oh, thank you so much for asking about this. I think everybody has that tiny little space in their brain that’s like, here’s a job that I would like to have that’s out of my skill set, and I know I’ll be really good at it, but there’s, I’ve got no hope in ever having that job. For me that is being a world-famous fashion designer.” Laughs.

“Oh, I love it.”

“There’s a big part of me that wants to do that, but then when I think about all of the time I would have to spend not studying music I’m like ooo, ooo but do I really want to make that sacrifice? Liel laughs. So at the moment the compromise is to make my own clothes. And then, I do all my own photography as well. I am very slowly working towards releasing my very first line of skirts. I’ve got four skirts half made. I’m waiting for the energy to finish them. But the idea behind these skirts is, they are skirts that will change size with you. so.”

“Oh, wow.”

“There’s a component which the wearer has to stitch on themselves in the place that it fits them best. And then if your sizing changes, you just move the components and the skirt still fits. And you’ve got like 30 centimeters of leeway.”

“That’s amazing”

“Either way.”

“Ah, I want that skirt thank you. Where can people find all of your beautiful writings, and fashion, all of those things?”

“My website is the centre of my creative universe. Laughs. It has all the links to all of the places I exist on the internet. And the address is https://theemeraldruby.com “

“Yes, I will link that in the show notes so people can just click on that straight away.”

“Under that name, The Emerald Ruby, I’m also on Instagram, Facebook, Spotify, Twitter, lookbook.new.”

“Was there anything that I didn’t ask you about that you kind of wanted to raise, or anything that you wanted to ask?”

“We have covered a lot in our chat this evening.“

“Yes.” laughs. 

“I think that the only thing I didn’t get to speak about. That a lot of the issues surrounding disability and then also race issues and women’s issues, in Australia at least, are easily solvable. And the people in power have made an active decision not to solve them.”

“What do you think is the most crucial part of, of the answer to those issues that you’re talking about?”

“Just for governments to acknowledge that a lot of the systems they’ve put in place actively keeps people from seeking the support they need. And that my dismantling those red tape systems not only will a lot more people get the support that they need, which then in turn makes them into the workers the government would like to see, it also opens up a lot more job opportunities for everybody, because if you’re properly supporting people, there needs to be people to fulfil those positions.”

“Thank you so much for coming to (Un)marginalised Jen, it was fantastic.”

“Thank you so much for having me on.”

“I like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I’m recording the podcast, the Warranjri people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respect to their elders past, present and emerging. As we tell our stories, I want to highlight that traditional owners of this land have been storytellers for generations.

This was the final episode of the first season of (Un)marginalised. I will be releasing a bonus episode in the next couple of weeks to my Patrons only. To access that, make sure you join on www.patreon.com/LielKbridgford or just click the link in the show notes. That way you can access the bonus episode and content, and make sure there is a season 2 of (Un)marginalised. Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, review and share the podcast with all of your networks. Thank you for listening. This was (Un)marginalised, and I am your host, Liel K. Bridgford. Until next time.”