Season 2, Episode 5:

Laura Pettenuzzo

In this week’s episode of the podcast, I spoke with Laura Pettenuzzo about internalised ableism, how using a wheelchair can be easier than walking, physio, writing days, spoons, dating with disabilities, easy English, how our intersections shape our reading and writing, chopped vegetables. 

Content note: ableism, internalised ableism, mental health challenges.

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Please note views expressed by podcast interviewees do not necessarily reflect the views of Liel or the Kultivate team.

Episode Transcript

[Theme music]

Liel (L): Shalom everybody. I’m Liel K Bridgford and this is (Un)marginalised. Before we jump in, please note that the following episode contains discussions about ableism, internalised ableism and mental health, so please take care as you listen and check out our show notes for support options. Today on the show I have Laura Pettenuzzo. Laura is a disabled writer, living on Wurundjeri Country, she has a master of professional psychology from Monash University and works with youth disability advocacy service, creating plain and easy English content. Her words have been published in various places, including Link Disability magazine, and The Age. Laura is also a newly appointed member of the Victorian Disability Advisory Council. Welcome Laura. 

Laura (LP): Thank you.

L: Firstly I think congratulations are due for your appointment to the Victorian Disability Advisory Council, can you tell people that don’t know what this is. What is this structure, what is the role of it, but also more personally, what are you hoping to achieve by being a part of it?

LP: First of all, I am so honoured and excited to have been appointed, but yeah so essentially, the um, the advisory committee reports to the state government, um, so we’re a group of disabled people, and um, just to specify I say, disabled people, using identity first language cause that’s my personal preference. 

L: Mmhmm

LP: Um, but you know, everyone on the committee of course can and will identify however they see fit. Um, but essentially we are um, a group of disabled people who use our lived and professional experience to provide advice to the government, on, I s’pose, ah, whatever elements of, um, issues and topics that pertain to disability, um, that might arise during the three years of our time on the, on the advisory committee. 

L: That sounds fantastic, and so important, so, so glad that you’re there. And as a disabled person, can you tell us what intersections of identity do you navigate? 

LP: I guess for me, um, the intersections that I navigate on a daily basis that I am most conscious of, I guess, are, um, mostly just like being a cis-woman and being a disabled woman, um, and I guess I’ve become more conscious of, I guess existing within those intersectionalities over the past few years, like I obviously always knew that I was disabled like I was born with cerebral palsy, well I was born like three and a half months premature, um, and like, have CP as a consequence, but it was almost as though I, I never really kind of, I s’pose identified as disabled, I was just kind of like, okay, like here’s this thing but I’m just not going to tell anyone about it, like I’ve, um, been ambulant, so I could kind of hide it except for the fact that like people would sometimes be like, oh what’s wrong with your leg and I would just lie and be like, I don’t know like [laughs], um [laughs], I fell or something 

L: Yep

LP: Because who can be bothered going through the whole story? And then I guess similarly I know that I have a lot of privilege in the sense that I am European. So like I’m not like, white in the traditional, like I’m doing air quotations, um, 

L: Yep

LP: But I don’t identify as a person of colour 

L: Yep

LP: And like I haven’t, I guess, had to, navigate racism and things like that, and like as sometime who’s Italian, I know that that’s just pure like circumstance and time cause I know that like a lot of my relatives did have to deal with like racism. 

L: I’m curious about the way you described yourself. I’d love to hear more, if you can explain to me, like about that because I think that’s something I struggle to explain to people because I’m an, like I say I’m an immigrant, I am an immigrant, but that’s kind of the word I use as a shorthand for, [Laura and Liel laugh] you know, a lot of things. I am like I can pass as a, as you said traditionally white person, I don’t identify as a person of colour but I am an immigrant, I’m also Jewish, so yeah, can you talk about how you identify and how do you navigate that space, a little bit?

LP: So I guess the first thing that comes to mind for me is that like when I was in prep, which is like the first year of primary school, um, I, we had to do an assignment where it was like, we were writing a letter to our grandparents, um, my nonna which is my grandmother, is like my favourite person in the whole entire world. Um, and so I started this letter by writing like dear nonna, um, and then someone else in the class like looked at it and was like nonna, what do you mean, like, it’s grandma, and I was like no? Like nonna, like I just, I don’t think I understood that like everyone called their grandparents like nonna or nonno, so um, I guess identifying as maybe like Australian-Italian although I’ve technically never like explicitly put that label on it but I s’pose that’s one example of how it’s kind of manifested in my life, not in like a lot of like overt huge ways but I s’pose just in like, um, smaller conversations and smaller realisations, that, oh hang on, the way that I see the world, the way that I interact with it, and with other people is shaped uniquely by like the culture and people that I grew up with

L: Yeah

LP: Even in the sense that like, like even now if I step into like, um, an Italian like cafe or shop and I hear people speaking Italian it’s like, it kind of feels like I’ve come home somewhere deep in my soul. 

L: That’s lovely, thank you. Can you give an example of what I guess being a disabled woman is like for you? What does that intersection kind of look like in your life?

LP: Yeah. So I guess, um, the, that intersection kind of manifests for me in both, as it would for many other disabled people, in internal and external ways. So, for me, internally I guess it looks like I am slowly learning to unpack a great amount of internalised ableism, um, a lot of which I still don’t even always recognise as internalised ableism until like one of my lovely friends will be like hey Laura. For instance, um, working at YDAS, like I remember one day I had to take um some like sick leave because I was spasming quite badly, um, which is to say like my legs were shaking, that’s, um, sometimes like part of my cerebral palsy and I said to my supervisor ,who is like the greatest person in the world, I was like, oh you know I feel really bad, um, that I had to do that, like I feel like I was kind of like letting everyone down and like I want to do my best because I really value this job and everything and she was like Laura, like it doesn’t make you like a bad employee, it just makes you human and I think she was

L: Mmmm

LP: you know I think that is a bit of internalised ableism manifesting itself there. Um, and it was really interesting cause she even reframed it and was like well what about if like I needed to take time off for like, if I was sick or something? And I said to her well of course, like that’s totally fine. Um [Liel and Laura both laugh].

L: But not for me.

LP: But not for me, no. [Laura laughs]. 

L: Yep

LP: Yeah, so I guess that’s the um, I guess, well one small part of the like internal experience of navigating that marginalisation, but I think the greater challenge really is, um, the external one. And for me, I think it manifests differently, depending on whether I’m like ambulant, um, so whether I’m walking or whether I’m like choosing to use my wheelchair.

L: Yeah

LP: Um, interestingly, it tends to be easier when I’m using the wheelchair. I think the wheelchair is a symbol that a lot of people recognise as disability, like 

L: Yep

LP: even though obviously it is in no way representative of the broad spectrum of the disability experience, as a consequence of, you know, a lack of representation, and um, you know, misinformed societal attitudes, um, people just tend to, I guess conflate wheelchair and disability, uh, so people tend to be a lot nicer to me, um, when I’m in my wheelchair and they’ll get, like out of my way, or like they’ll um, like it’s just, they’ll just kind of like, if I’m crossing the road or something in my wheelchair and I’m a little bit slower, like they won’t toot me

L: Yeah

LP: whereas if I’m walking, um, and like it’s taking me a long time to cross the road or like I’m struggling to get like onto the curb or whatever, like people will like actually toot me, or like gesture at me, or like I’ve had a tram driver yell at me cause I haven’t like gone up the stairs quick enough. 

L: Oh my god

LP: Yeah, that that in particular was really awful and I just cried. So I think in that sense the, I guess, the perceptions of other people, uh, what has made it like more difficult for me as a disabled person. 

L: And I’m, I’m curious as you talk about that, lack of representation, whether that’s something you know that, how we have that perception of disability equals wheelchair

LP: Mhmm 

L: And no wheelchair equals non-disabled, basically. 

LP: Yep

L: Do you have an idea, or I’m sure you have lots, but [Laura and Liel laugh], kinda one idea of how can we change that misconception in our society?

LP: Primarily, it’s just, I guess about like education, like, um, and awareness, and when I say that I don’t mean to say that it’s up to us as disabled people to provide that education and awareness because obviously like it’s not, we are not anyone else’s like teaching tool. Um, it’s I guess able-bodied people recognising that they are only ever temporarily able-bodied, um in the sense that you know, as we age, a lot of people do acquire disabilities, um, and it’s not, um an imposition for able-bodied people to learn about and accommodate disabilities, actually it’s a gift.

L: Yeah

LP: Um, and so I think it starts with conversations like the one you and I are having right now. Um and the one that every person, able-bodied or not can have, um, with their friend, their family, their neighbour to just kind of, I guess, to take something that has been invisible and make it visible and bring it into the metaphorical figurative light. 

L: Thank you. I’ve got another question about, I guess disability and maybe your experience of it. So, in another episode that I’ve done this season with Jess Kapucinski-Evans, she was talking about how her, in her opinion there’s a bit of a divide in the disability community

LP: Mhhmm 

L: between people with physical disabilities and people with psychosocial disabilities. And you identify as a person who also has psychosocial disabilities, so can you talk about, you know, what is your experience of having both, and if you do feel the same in the sense of that division?

LP: That division is something that I have noticed, um, and I guess even in my own experience I was comfortable as identifying as, um, someone with psychosocial disability long before I was comfortable saying that I, um, was someone that had a physical disability 

L: Right

LP: Even though I’ve had the physical obviously my whole life, since I was born, but I think because like I would never say it as, I have like a psychosocial disability, I would say like I have anxiety or depression. So I think it is really important for me to, when I speak openly about my experiences with disability to acknowledge that, um, you know, I have both the psychosocial and the physical and I think that particularly given like the language that the NDIS uses around, so like, you know, calling um mental health conditions psychosocial disability, you know, in like my lived experience work, like, um, on the psychosocial disability or mental health side, um, like I have seen and heard a lot of resistance from people with mental health challenges or mental illness or whatever, um, term they might prefer. 

L: Yeah

LP: To actually identifying in that way, and actually saying, you know, but I don’t want people to think I’m disabled or I don’t want to, I guess be associated with that word, and I think, that’s a demonstration of the fact that societal ableism has so much to answer for, in the sense that it’s created this sense of, I guess almost, not revulsion, but um, just absolute fear around the word disability, to the point where people, even though it actually is their experience are just

L: Yeah

LP: So reluctant to actually acknowledge that. Yeah, I guess that’s really sad and I’m hoping that maybe slowly, um, that can start to shift. 

L: Thank you, and I guess I’m curious about how those identities, you know your physical disabilities and your psychosocial disabilities, how, how do they impact your writing?

LP: Uh, like they both impact it, but they impact it differently. So, um, the psychosocial disability impacts my writing in the sense that pretty much every character that I write tends to have some kind of psychosocial disability, um, that’s just kind of I guess, I, I process the world emotionally, I guess we all do, but I think, um, emotions are my primary means of, um, encountering people and things and um, just kind of making sense of everything, so what that means is that when I write, um, often, like I’ll read through like pages and pages that I’ve written and be like hang on, um, there’s not much actual physical description there, or [Liel laughs], like there’s not much dialogue, it’s literally just feelings, um [Laura laughs]

L: Yeah, I’m just laughing in identification because I’ve got like huge amount of pages that I’ve filled with feelings with [Laura laughs], absolutely no action and nothing like actually happening, so, yeah. 

LP: Yess, oh my god, even like fanfiction, like okay [Liel laughs], I used to write so much fanfiction and I would, I look back at it now and I’m like, Laura, you literally, just, there’s no plot, um [Laura and Liel laugh].

L: Yep. Who needs a plot when you have the feelings?

LP: Exactly [Laura laughs].

L: Yeah

LP: That’s how, I guess, my psychosocial disability impacts what comes out on the page.

L: Yep

LP: In terms of how it impacts, like, when I’m able to write, um, I guess like I kind of use writing as a form of catharsis. So whether it’s journalling, which I try to do everyday, or whether it’s kind of trying to distract myself from something like upsetting, um, in the real world, by just like setting a timer for like 20 minutes and going, just write whatever. Just like gets words out on the page, um, and kind of get lost in the words for a while, 

L: Yeah

LP: so that when the timer goes off, I can come back to, um, come back to like real life and whatever it was doesn’t seem quite so pressing and overwhelming anymore. 

[Theme music starts]

L: Oh I love that, that’s such a good tool. I’m going to use that if you don’t mind [Laura and Liel laugh].

LP: Absolutely [Laura laughs]

L: Sounds wonderful. Can we talk about dating?

LP: Sure.

[Theme music stops]

L: Okay. So I, I haven’t been dating in a long time, so I’d to hear about your experience because I know from so many people just generally are struggling with dating at the moment with online dating and a pandemic and everything so as a disabled woman what has that been like for you?

LP: I guess I’ve basically just given up during the pandemic, um, just because I still am very much like not really going anywhere, um, like I will go visit my nonna, who’s is 92 [Liel gasps], in a nursing ho—I know. Um, and she has had covid and it was so scary, so like, going to see nonna like once a week is like my big adventure, but then what that means is that, I’m, there’s no way I’m gonna risk, like, you know, being like oh I’m gonna go, like go on a date with someone in person because that’s just not worth that risk. Also, like, I have, I’ve never really like, um, had, say for instance, like a photo of myself in my wheelchair on like my dating profile and that’s something that I feel like maybe I should do. Just in the sense that like it’s part of me, and you know, like I don’t want to hide my disability, but it’s, and I guess it’s just really fascinating because, I, like, there’s no like outward sign that people are going to be like, oh she has a psychosocial disability, um. Whereas in relationships, it’s the psychosocial disability that is like the hardest one to manage. 

L: Thank you. And with how you’re talking about putting a photo of yourself in your wheelchair and I guess, revealing, in a sense that you have a disability, either a physical disability or psychosocial disability, how have you found the experience of actually, I guess disclosing that?

LP: Well in terms of psychosocial disability, I’m very open about that. Like, as I like make a new friend, basically, I warn them, um, because I tend to get like, I call it new friend anxiety, um where [Laura laughs]. 

L: Yeah

LP: I’ll just be like, ooh, like I really want this person to be my friend but that probably means that they hate me, um, or I’m going to do something wrong and then I’m going to make them dislike me, and it’s going to be awful. Um, so I tend to just be like, hey just a heads up, like I’m a really anxious person, so if I’m seeking reassurance, um a lot, that’s why. Um, or like if you don’t hear from me for a while, like it’s not because I don’t like you, it’s because my brain is telling me that, you know, you don’t wanna hear from me, or I’m a burden, or whatever other um, like maladaptive cognitions I’ve got swirling around in there. 

L: Those are really good tips. Have you ever had a time where you’ve disclosed a disability and it didn’t go well?

LP: Not like immediately. Like, like I’ve had times when like, it has been hard for people to manage my psychosocial disability, and that, that sense that like, I do disappear, um, like if I am feeling really anxious I will pull away, um, and I know that that can be really hard, like for, the person on the other side to deal with because it feels like, it feels like I am, like I am actually pushing them away, and that must be really hard and awful. And it’s, like it’s something that I am working through, like therapy, love it. Dialectical Behaviour Therapy in particular, especially love it. Yeah, what has helped me, at least with the psychosocial disability is having an awareness of like how that manifests in relationships, whether it be friendships or otherwise, I’m just kind of trying to, I guess, be like, if you see me doing this, like this is what it means, like it might feel like, um, you know, like I hate you, or I’m mad at you, but actually it means that my brain is doing this, um, and if my brain is doing this, here is what I will do to snap to me out of it. Here is maybe what we can do together, um, to help snap me out of it. And, uh, for the most part, like, people are understanding and lovely.

L: I would love to go back to your writing because we touched on it a little bit before. Can you tell us about your writing. What do you love the most? What do you love writing the most and what are you working on at the moment, if you can share?

LP: When I write, it’s, it’s an act of, I guess, an act of affirmation and an act of, um, consciously choosing to take up spare, whether it’s space on a Word document, or like space on a page, um, and it is a very good, uh, frame of reference for where my mental health is at, um, because there have been times when I haven’t written because I believe that I don’t deserve to take up, like literally, I don’t deserve to use a piece of paper, or um, I don’t deserve to, um, I guess, like you know, take up space on a Word document. Um, so, it, it feels like an act of courage to show up to the page, um, no matter what words I put on there, um, and also an act of like, choosing myself. Like when I come to the page I am choosing to be in the world, I am choosing to honour my ideas and give them life. So, yeah, that, in that sense, um, writing, I s’pose, yeah it enriches the connection that I have with myself, uh, but also, I really like to write letters to my friends and family. So in that sense, I think it also enriches the connections that I have with them. Uh, so I’m currently working on a, uh, historical manuscript, which yeah I’m really excited about, because it focuses on, um, uh, an empress in Austria, her name is like Cece, and she had a psychosocial disability, um, and she’s now really renowned for like her fashion sense, but a lot of um, historians and biographers mention fleetingly her psychosocial disability and the impact that it had on her children and her husband the emperor. But none of the works actually focus on, like how that psychosocial disability played out in those familial relationships which I just find endlessly fascinating, so um, I ‘m writing the manuscript from the perspective of her two daughters, um, looking at how their relationship with their mother and with each other, um, is in some ways shaped by the psychosocial disability in their family. 

L: And I was actually going to ask you about your reading experience, which is obviously very related to your writing experience, because I think most people who write, kind of read. So as a disabled woman, how do you feel your reading experience is shaped by your identities? I mean, I know that for me, like it totally, my identities totally shape how I read texts, like for example I always search for like strong female characters and if I see like perpetuation of toxic ideas, like toxic masculinity, or gender binaries or ableism or racism or anything like that, it makes it so hard for me to enjoy the text. And yeah, I guess I’m curious for you, how, how do your identities shape your reading experience do you think?

LP: My identities absolutely shape my reading experience, quite explicitly in the sense that for a long time I sought out books with representation of psychosocial disability and I still do, um. But then once I started embracing and acknowledging my physical disability, um, and, disability pride, I then also started seeking out, uh, books with disability representation. And it’s interesting, I’ve noticed I just can’t consume any media in the same way anymore, whether it’s like books or TV shows, or movies, or podcasts, like there’s a TV show that heaps of people have said to me, Laura you have to watch this show. And I watched the first episode, and actually I think you and I had a

L: We had a Twitter conversation about it

LP: Yeah, ha [Laura laughs]. Yes, and I just, despite the fact that so many people have recommended this show to me, I watched the first episode and there was just terrible, like disability representation, and I just, I’m so angry and I can’t just bring myself to watch, um, the rest of the show. But yeah, so I think similarly with books, like I was listening to, I was reading an audiobook, uh, recently, and it was a, ah, like an Australian author and it was like a, I guess, like a historical drama, and I was a few chapters in and I was like oh yeah the plot’s quite engaging, and then one of the characters just casually dropped the r word, like calling another character that, and I was like just nup, I don’t even care how engaging this is, like get this away from me. 

L: So just to explain to people in case someone who’s listening doesn’t actually know what we’re talking about. I’m not gonna say the word, but the r word is just referring to an ableist slur which is just a word that was used, ah, basically against disabled people for many years, and so we’re not going to repeat the word, but that’s what we’re referring to, yep. 

LP: Um, having said that, though, we’re very lucky in the Australian literary landscape in the sense that we do have a lot of, um, Own Voices writers. Um, and just Own Voices for anyone who’s not familiar, um, refers to writers from, um, any marginalised background, although as far as I’m aware it did originate with a disabled person. So, say for instance, like a disabled writer writing a disabled story, and so we have so many great examples of that in Australian literature, which is wonderful, um and I seek those out, and absolutely devour them. 

L: Yep, same. And I guess it kind of leads me to my next question because I guess when I read, like you say, that book that had the r word in it, I feel the same, like I want to, like it makes me want to write and email to every single person who was involved in making that book come to be like printed, through the entire process, um, and it makes me very angry that all these people in the background, the editors, the publicists, all of those people, and you know, sensitivity readers, whoever was involved, kind of didn’t raise any flags, and it leads me to my question about, you wrote an article recently for, I think it was originally for Hire Up, that was then republished, is that right?

LP: Yep

L: Okay, um, so the piece was about Lizzo’s use of an ableist slur, and do you mind if I read like a little bit from there, is that okay?

LP: Yeah sure.

L: “Lizzo is not the only person responsible for the content of her songs. Her producers, her co-writers, her management, and a whole host of people must have heard that song. Not one of them stopped to consider that it might be not appropriate to throw around a slur, the use of which would serve to normalise and reinforce dangerous and ableist ideas.” I guess I’m wondering about something that, you know, your article didn’t get to, which is, what do you think needs to change, apart from us obviously all of the disability advocates and hopefully allies calling out these problems, but they keep occurring and they’re everywhere as we see. We said, they’re in TV, they’re in podcasts, they’re in books, they’re in articles, they’re everywhere. 

LP: Yep 

L: Um, so what do you think needs to happen, like how can we kind of, change that from maybe a higher level, like how can we structurally change those things?

LP: That’s a really good question and I guess you really touched on it in the sense that it does have to be systemic. Um, you know, um, we can start from the ground up, and start with those, um, like individual actions, but um lasting meaningful change, um, has to come from decision-makers, it has to come from, you know the people who have influence and power, using that to support us. Um, and I think there needs to be people with lived experience of disability at all levels of leadership. Um, and I think that’s why I’m really passionate about things such as the Victorian Disability Advisory Council. 

L: Wonderful, thank you. As lots of other emerging writers, and emerging artists do, you also have a day job. Can you just talk about how you manage to kind of have a day job, and then do you writing and your advocacy, like it’s a lot.

LP: It is, um, a lot. And to be honest, um, I don’t always manage it vey well, uh, you and I were talking before we started recording about a particular week a couple of months ago, when I just pushed myself way too hard and regretted it. Um and so for me, I think like managing it, is about, like we a lea, like I’m very lucky that I’m, um, employed, on a part-time basis, which means that I accrue leave and can take that when I need to. And also, sometimes a big part of it is just saying no to things. Like, um, as hard as that is. Like there’s so many like opportunities for writers and creatives in the world, and you know, if, if I really like, um, you know, like, if I had my way so to speak, I would be saying yes and applying to all of them, [Liel laughs] um, but um, you know.

L: I laugh in recognition [Laura laughs]

LP: Yes, like yes, I’ll like pitch to that journal, I’ll pitch to that publication. Um, oh and to that competition, yeah. 

L: Yeah that would be a full time job. 

LP: Yeah, so I think for me it means like managing my spoons really carefully, so thinking like, for instance with my cerebral palsy, like I have to do physio, um, to kind of help me manage the, um, the spasms and the pain, and fatigue and stuff that comes along with that, ah, but, there’s a trade off in the sense that if I do physio, like I then have, like a great deal of fatigue and I then can’t write, so I’m kind of like, okay, it’s a physio day, so it’s not a writing day, um, and like sometimes that’s really hard. But as a consequence, I don’t do my physio anywhere near as much as I should. 

L: Can I just tell you something my physio once told me? 

LP: Please

L: She actually told me that they prescribe, the amount they prescribe is actually something like 3 times more than what they think people should do, because they know people don’t do enough, so. 

LP: Oh [Laura laughs].

L: FYI you might be actually doing enough [Liel laughs]

LP: Oh my goodness, okay that is so reassuring. That is one of the most reassuring things I have ever heard. Oh my god, okay. 

L: I know.

LP: Wow

L: Cause she’d say things to me like, oh do this three times a day, and I looked at her cause we had a good relationship and I said to her, I am not going to do that three times a day, you know that [Laura laughs]. And she’s like, yeah I know, even if you do it once a day, it will still be effective, we just say about three times the amount you have to do because we know that people don’t actually reach those goals that we set for them. 

LP: Oh my gosh. 

L: There you go. 

LP: Okay, I want to tell everyone I know this to just be like, see, I am actually doing enough physio [Laura laughs]. 

L: So that is, that is a really good, though, description and explanation for people to know, you know sometimes, a physio day is not a writing day, um, and it’s that compromise.

LP: Um, yeah I guess it’s also like, um, taking other steps to kind of conserve my energy so, um, it might be that I like, you know, meal prep, so that I, um, like don’t have to cook after work. Um, or it might be that I, like as much as I care about the environment and try not to use like, um, pre-prepared meals, sometimes I just have to accept that like if I’ve had a long day at work, um and/or if I have done physio, um, like, it just hurts, um, to like, um, you know to get up, and like, you know, cook and whatever else.

L: Chop

LP: Yeah, oh my god, chopping, how do people chop vegetables? I don’t understand. 

L: Exhausting. 

LP: Yes, oh my god. The best thing about having, like being on the NDIS, chopped watermelon. I was talking to my friend who also have cerebral palsy and I was like I really want watermelon, but I can’t chop it, and she was like, Laura, you just ask your support worker to chop it for you, and I was like, oh my gosh, amazing [Laura laughs]. 

L: Yeahh, that’s a very good point, about actually going, you know I can ask someone for help, whoever that person is. 

LP: And I think we forget sometimes, or at least I forget, um, and I just, yeah, think well no I can’t do that, but actually I can, like there’s no shame in that, actually there’s enormous strength in it. 

L: I would love to hear amongst other things, you’re also passionate about accessible language. 

LP: Yes 

L: So, this aspect of accessibility is often really forgotten in mainstream understanding of equity and disability justice, I think. So can you tell us what has brought you to this passion and interest?

LP: I guess, you know having been a writer for such a long time, I’ve always been fascinated by, um, language, um and the ways it can unite us but also divide us. Uh, when I started working in, like communications and disability a few years ago, I started to realise that language could divide us in an even more significant way, in the sense that by making communications like full of jargon, by using complex language, long sentences, long paragraphs, um, and other features of language that might make it harder for people with various disabilities to follow. What we’re saying is, you don’t belong here, there’s no place for you here, and I don’t want to be part of anything whether it’s a program, an organisation or a sentence, um, that says that to any other human being, so like I find that making sure that every kind of communication that I create both personally and in my work, um, considers accessibility and considers um the language that I’m using is essential. And so what that means is that sometimes I will have to use, like a jargonistic word but then if I do that, um, to make sure that I’m providing a definition immediately after, in much the same way that you previously provided context, uh, when we were talking about a particular slur. And the fact is that accessible communication isn’t hard, um, and it doesn’t just benefit disabled people. 

L: How do you then, in your creative writing, how do you, navigate the need to write in an accessible way and your creative flair, you know?

LP: Um, that is something that I struggle with in an, like, an ongoing way. If I’m writing something to be published on like the Internet, um, it’s easier to put in place, um, accessibility features, or like say if I am using like a word that’s jargon or that has certain, like um, connotations, you know I might put what’s called a tool tip, um, where like you can hover over a word and then it’ll show you the definition, but if I’m writing something for, say, like that’s gonna be in print to be honest, it is really really hard, um, and I I don’t have like a solid answer yet. Um, I guess some of the things that I can and do actively um try to consider are, like the size of the font that I use and the particular font that I use, um and then also making sure that my paragraphs aren’t too long for the same reason. And I guess that’s not like a content consideration, but I s’pose is a testament to the fact that accessibility doesn’t have to be and isn’t just about content. It’s about every feature of a message that you’re conveying. 

L: People don’t often realise this but as a, like I studied English as a second language in school, from first grade and I was very privileged to also have like exposure in TV and music and all of that. But we never learned cursive and so I still don’t know how to write cursive properly and also reading cursive I find really hard because I’ve not had the exposure, I mean the only English I would ever read was from books, either text books or you know, books online etcetera, so cursive is very inaccessible even to me. I get be—I’m getting better at it with time, but still, I would not choose cursive in my communication as well, for the reason that I know it’s really tricky. And I guess I’m wondering if we can kind of finish our conversation Laura with you telling us, what does intersectionality mean to you? 

LP: So intersectionality to me means I guess opportunity, um, like, I’m choosing to look at it as, um, an opportunity to consider the ways in which like, not just my identity, but other people’s identities, um, give them and give me, like a unique perspective on the world, um and I think it would be easy to, think of intersectionality and marginalisation and belonging to a marginalised group or living on the intersections as something that offers disadvantage and you know, there’s no denying that it can, and it does. Um, but it also offers so much potential, um, and so much hope, so for me, living on the intersections has given me an enormous amount of empathy that I don’t think I would have had otherwise. Um, and that’s just one example of the ways in which I guess intersectionality can be, and is, um, that source of hope and growth, um, like the people that are changing the world, the people that are changing the status quo, um, and challenging traditions, are those of us who, in whatever way, live and exist in and on the intersections. 

L: I love that answer. Um, so Laura, tell us where can people find you and support your work.

LP: Yeah absolutely, so I’m thisgirl, as in like t h i s g i r l underscore writes, w r i t e s, um, on twitter and Instagram, and I have a WordPress blog called Laura’s adventures in Literature, where I discuss disability representation in literature. 

[Theme music starts].

L: Wonderful. And all of these links will be in the show notes, so everyone who has listened to the episode right now, go down to our show notes and just click on them and go and follow Laura. Thank you so much for coming to (Un)marginalised Laura, it was so lovely to have to you today. 

LP: Thank you so much for having me. 

L: Before we go, a grateful thanks to the City of Melbourne Arts Grant 2022 for supporting this episode and the entire second season of the (Un)marginalised podcast. I would also like to respectively acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this episode was produced, the Boon Wurroung people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respect to their elders past, present and emerging. As we tell our stories, I want to highlights that traditional owners of this land have been storytellers for generations. If you enjoyed or learned something from the episode, please rate, review and share it with a curious person in your life. 

[Theme music fades out]


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Season 2 : Finale - with Carly Findlay
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Season 2 : Episode 4 - with Zoe Simmons