Episode Transcript

[Theme music]

Liel (L): Shalom everybody. I’m Liel K Bridgford and this is (Un)marginalised. Before we jump in, please note that the following episode contains discussions about fatphobia, ableism, mental illness, suicide, sexual harassment, and assault. So please take care as you listen and check out our show notes for support options. Today on the show I have Zoe Simmons. Zoe is an award-winning journalist, copywriter, author, editor and speaker with a passion for making a difference. As a journalist, she has been published around the globe, including by news.com.au, the New York Post, Daily Mail and more. Zoe runs her own copywriting business, has been published in three books, and is writing her own. Zoe has now spoken on podcasts, print, radio, and TV on disability, chronic pain, mental illness and bushfire recovery. Welcome Zoe, thank you so much for being here today. 

Zoe (Z): Thank you so much for having me, it’s great to be here. 

L: Great, well do you want to start by, um, telling us what intersections of identity do you navigate?

Z: So, I know it might sound strange, but before being invited on this podcast, I didn’t really think a whole lot about how intersectionality impacted me, which is weird because I, I literally studied a subject on inter-intersectional feminism at university so, I, I just never considered it would impact me. But, um, obviously it does, um. And I did, I’ll admit I did google before this, um, and it turns out there’s more factors than I even initially realised, um. 

L: really?

Z: Yeah, I, I didn’t realise so many things counted as intersectionality and then I thought about it like, hm, you know what they do have an impact, so, firstly I am a woman. I’m also a disabled woman, and I come from a relatively poor socio-economic background, um, so that’s another factor. And I didn’t realise this was an example of intersectionality, but, um, weight also can be, and hell yeah, fatphobia is so rampant, especially in the medical industry, so you know, all these things combined, do have quite an impact on my experience and they all overlap and intertwine and, um, I do obviously have elements of privilege, like for example, that fact that I’m White, the fact that I’m cisgender. Um, but it’s just interesting how those things, you know, interlink, and you know, just because you have one privilege doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t have another disadvantage for example than. Yeah so that’s a bit eyeopening to research.

L: Um, and can you, I guess, explain in an example, perhaps how that affects your life, you know, you said that it does influence your experience. Can you give an example of, something that you’ve noticed?

Z: I mean I think, the medical industry is particularly prominent for me at the moment, um, you know, I think, as women, or you know, people with uteruses, generally, um, you’re more likely to not be listened to, um, the conditions that primarily affect us, like for example, endometriosis, adenomyosis, fibromyalgia, um, chronic fatigue, um, ME, all those things, um, you know, were quite often dismissed, and those things aren’t often as researched and um, even in other conditions, it’s often only really men’s experiences, that are researched and documented, so that’s definitely impactful. 

L: Sounds like it is all kind of relat-you know, inter-related for you as well. 

Z: Yeah. I mean, gosh, the medical industry, is, not as good as I thought it was before I had to use it, I guess. Um, like I remember the first time I went to a doctor for help with my pain, and, um, she was like, oh it’s dairy, and I was like, hm, no it’s not. And she’s like, yeah it’s dairy, and insisted and I was like, it’s not because I am vegan and I don’t eat dairy and I haven’t for a couple of years now. So, you know, it’s not that, and then she’s like, oh it’s your weight. And like these comments without doing any tests, without talking to me for more than a couple of minutes, it’s just, I-I just can’t believe things like this happen so much and that’s a tame example compared to what other people experience.

L: I’m sort of wondering when, I mean you said that you’ve researched coming up to our conversation, but you told me that you’ve only realised you had a disability about a year ago, even though you’ve been living with it for quite a while. Can you tell us how that happened, and also, how did that kind of impact your life? What changed for you when you realised you did have a disability? 

Z: Um, well, technically I’ve been disabled my whole life, thanks to bipolar and anxiety, but I didn’t realise those were mental illnesses, um, I mean I started experiencing chronic pain, although I didn’t realise it was aspects of chronic pain back then, um, but I remember it being as early as—as young as 12, and you know, experiencing ridiculously painful periods that you know, I remember, you know, not being able to run in PE, and then being dismissed and told, you know, you’re just trying to get out of PE, and you know, oh, just dismissing you, just go on the pill, like it’s fine, it’s normal, and it wasn’t until I was, um, in my early 20s, when I broke my wrist and I realised that my abdominal pain hurt more than a broken bone. So I was like hmm, no, that’s, that’s definitely not normal, um.

L: Yep

Z: You know, then, all these other symptoms began to emerge. My pain became constant  regardless of my period, um, agonising abdominal pain that feels like you’re being stabbed and shot, like someone’s pouring acid in there, not pleasant, um, and you know, a lot of bone pain, nerve pain, extreme fatigue, all these things that, you know, I, never considered that what I was experiencing could be disability because I’d never really seen it represented, um, you know. We kind of only see disability in the media as either the tragic, the tragic disabled life, or the super fit Paralympian, and that’s not just reflective of most people’s experiences [Zoe laughs]. Even though I had multiple disabilities at this point, I was like, no I’m not disabled, I’m just—, and you know, that’s internalised ableism talking, um [Zoe laughs], then I kind of realised that it’s okay to identify as disabled, like it’s not a dirty word, it’s not a bad thing, and like, I saw the impact it had on, like my jobs, my relationships, my mobility, like I now often need to use a walking stick or a wheelchair, and sometimes just walking to my lounge room exhausts me, and it’s like, how are those things not a disability? Um, [Zoe laughs]. 

L: Yeah. So what happened, as you kind of said, I can identify as a disabled person? How did that change things for you?

Z: I mean, the point in time that actually kind of fully clicked that I was disabled was pretty traumatic. I just had my second surgery looking for endometriosis, and they still couldn’t find it, you know, I felt so, lost and you know, what is wrong with me, and um, the disability community kind of helped me see that I’m valid even without a diagnosis, like your symptoms alone are valid enough, like. It was pretty heartbreaking, I guess to realise, um, not necessarily, you know, realising I’m disabled, but realising I’d been battling with these things for so long, and not recognising their impact on me, um, but it was also a good thing because it helped me to advocate for myself. It helped me to realise that the system is not on your side, generally speaking. Um, you know, you do have to fight to get answers, you do have to fight to be heard, and, um, you know, it spurred me into advocacy and it, like, being disabled also helped me feel more comfortable in you know, recognising my symptoms, and that yes they do impact my world, I’m not just, you know, making up excuses, um, but also recognising that I was disabled also meant that I could ask for accessbility because I didn’t realise I could do that, um. It also helped me find a sense of pride, like, I think that’s pretty, pretty badass, you know to experience all these horrible things, but then still follow your dreams, not that you have to do anything to be productive to have value, but just, you know, that you can still achieve things, it’s not, you know, this horrible barrier necessarily, um, you can still live a beautiful life, um. 

L: Yeah. It’s a huge thing, I think, you know, so many people feel, so many, either non-disabled people or people that have just been diagnosed or just acquired a disability that don’t even identify with that word yet, feel that life isn’t worth living if you have a disability, or life isn’t worth living if you don’t have your full mobility or if you are in pain like it just seems like this black or white kind of situation, like unless you’re fully capable of like running a marathon, then why would you even get up in the morning, which is so ridiculous, like many of us live with disabilities and don’t do things like marathons or climbing the Everest or whatever, and we still have a wonderful life, that’s really meaningful and just fantastic, so. But I’m also so sorry to hear about the trauma and I think it’s so important to acknowledge that trauma, and I guess it kind-, it brings me to my question about the medical model because we, versus the social model of disability because, obviously the medical system that we have is based on the medical model of disability, so what I mean by that is that you know, most medical professionals come in, and that all their learning is about how to fix whatever is wrong with our bodies, whatever it is, a broken bone, our brain, whatever, versus the social model of disability that obviously centres the disabling part on society, so um, rather than our bodies or our minds. I know that it’s a recent journey for you, but have you had time to kind of ponder whether you identify more with the model, with the medical model of disability versus the social model?

Z: Um, I actually have a little bit. One of the big factors in helping me realise I was disabled was reading, um, you know, articles and books written by other disabled writers, like I read Growing up Disabled in Australia, and I remember just reading the foreword, by I’m pretty sure, Carly Findlay wrote the foreword, um, but I just, you know, read that and I was like oh my gosh, that is, that is spot on. Um, you know, the medical industry sees us as the problem, and that’s, pretty awful. Like yes there is some things that need to be, you know, treated, but seeing us as the problem kind of casts the blame on us, and it’s like, a lot of our conditions don’t have a cure, like, it’s just, it’s just, as-is. Like are you just going to tell us we’re permanently broken? Like no. And a lot of the barriers we experience are because of society.

L: So can I ask about your mental illness that you described and I guess the way that you see the, social model of disability, how that relates to your mental illness or inaccessibility, like how does that kind of, you know, like what is inaccessible, do you think in society, for you, as a person with a mental illness and what is accessible?

Z: Um, yeah I mean honestly though, I do feel like my physical disabilities kind of impact me more when it comes to accessibility. So there are a lot of things that are really inaccessible, I mean from a mental health perspective, I think it’s just the assumption that you don’t have mental illness, that you don’t have anxiety. And like, I have a complex mental illness and I’m pretty sure I also have PTSD, and like you know, these things are not considered like, you know, requiring, an in-person event or something where you all have to stand up and talk, like one if you can’t stand up, that’s a ridiculous thing to ask people, and two, um, you know, that is really anxiety-inducing, it’s, you know, often just expected to d–, oh just move past it, it’s just just in your head, and like, it is in your head, but that doesn’t make it any less real. It is still impacting you and it’s still valid, um

L: Yeah

Z: In terms of physical inaccessibility, oh my gosh. Um, I’m pretty new to being a wheelchair user, I use it part-time, I have a manual chair, um, but I found it so hard to like navigate society, like things you wouldn’t even think of when you’re able-bodied. Like being able to get into a physical location, or like, the slopes on a footpath, the footpath ending, like little lips that connect the road and the footpath and if they’re too big you, like hit it like a rock, pretty scary. And like trying to access public transport in particular is not great. I used a wheelchair for the first time on a train not too long ago and it was genuinely terrifying, like there was no signage on what do, I went to like the little part of the station that had a little disability sticker, and I thought you know, that’s where I should go. Nope. They don’t have that information anywhere, um, you know, I think they, they say to go to a particular part of the carriage but then, I went to that part and no-one was there, um, and anyway, I tried to end up getting in the chair and I forgot, sorry I tried to get in the train with my chair and I forgot that I have little front wheels and I got stuck in like the gap between the train and the chair and that was so scary, I was just convinced I was going to get sucked through and die and you know, I’m on an angle, and other people on the train came and moved me which was really humiliating and you know, I was crying cause I was just, I don’t know, just fear of being crushed by a train took hold, you know, being seen, like thinking, you know anxiety coming in, like oh no people are watching, and stuff like that, just, just really horrible, and there are so many things that are inaccessible, like, so much. 

L: It is very overwhelming and something that a lot of people don’t really think about until they actually are in that chair, quite literally. Um, can you tell us about what you love doing most, what are you into at the moment?

Z: So, I have a lot of different, I guess, hats, creative-wise. I worked with a lot of like really cool small businesses, but also some big organisations I’m really proud of, so I’m going to name drop. [Zoe laughs]. Um, like Women with Disabilities Australia and like Youth Disability Advocacy Service, Hireup, like just amazing organisations and, yeah I’m also a journalist, so I freelance for a lot of different publications and organisations, um. I do quite often write about my own experiences, um, but I do also write articles about other people’s stories to, I guess, help people feel heard and share, I guess, a bit more diversity in the media, um. I, I, also like to, um, share fundraisers in my stories, so I often help people raise money that are in vulnerable situations, um. You know, I speak sometimes, like I’m, I’ve spoken at the National Young Writers Festival, um, I’d love to do more. I started doing a little bit of lived experience work, like I’ve just, I’m about to start a role as a Lived Experience Advisor with the Royal Children’s Hospital, but. 

L: Fantastic, and congratulations on all your publications and all the, you know, speaking gigs that you’re getting, and writing and sharing experiences, that’s fantastic. And, you’re also writing your own book. Can you just tell us about it, give us the elevator pitch?

Z: Yeah absolutely. So, um, after experiencing the Black Summer bushfires, I went back home to Batemans Bay, and um, on New Year’s Eve 2019, and um, unfortunately got caught in the bushfires and um, I just remember hearing all these stories that just weren’t being captured and it just wasn’t enough for like the 1000 word articles, so I decided to write a story, and like there’s all these..there’s so many things that people just don’t know about a bushfire and like its impacts and its trauma and like how severe these things like. Like, um, for example, one of the people in my book is, um, a father that, a seventy-year-old, that had bombs the size of firetrucks landing all around him, like firebombs, um, just landing everywhere and you know, his daughter didn’t know he was alive and thought he’d died in it because the phone reception cut out, it’s just like what. Um, and we have been forgotten, so that’s also something I’m going to be talking about in my book and the impacts of being forgotten because as soon as Covid came in, no-one cared, um, even now I can’t get a story accepted about the bushfires, which is so disheartening because people are still homeless, people are still struggling so much. Um, so my book is about that as well as my own experiences, um in the bushfires, my emotions, being a disabled journalist, uh, my own trauma of the day which was not great. Um, it’s very hard to write a book especially when you are trying to earn money to pay for all the expensive medical stuff and you know, dealing with sta-medical stuff and then, you know, needing to put your energy into stuff that pays your bills and you can’t put your energy into your projects, um. 

L: And in order to pay the bills you run your own business. Can you, and you talked about what you do in the business, but can you tell us about why you started your own business, I mean you were working for other people. What happened? What was it about the kind of, traditional workplace that was inaccessible to you?

Z: I mean there were a lot of factors, um, at that stage I didn’t fully realise I was disabled, and like I didn’t know accessibility applied to me, so I didn’t ask for the things, um, but there were some things I was asking for that I knew’d help, like for example, remote work, and I remember that, um, I was like, it takes so much energy to commute to a workplace, to be a physical location, you can’t manage your pain as much, it makes it worse, it makes your fatigue worse, it’s just, all around not great for disabled people, um, and I remember them saying, like oh, if I’m in pain I can’t come to the office, and they were like oh no you have to, but if you’re in pain don’t come, well I’m in pain all the time, so, um, you know, there was a lot of that. And I just didn’t feel like I would be able to grow as much there and I wanted to be able to look after myself first, I wanted to be able to manage my appointments and my symptoms and not feel bad for asking for time off or resting or you know, working how works best for me, like from my lounge with a lap-desk, or you know, in bed or in my pyjamas, in ways that I can manage my pain when it happens, and it’s made me so much more productive, but.

L: You recently wrote a piece in Body and Soul called “It’s Complicated: A Love Letter to my Mobility Aids”, which I love that piece, by the way. I guess, what you were talking about in that piece is the changing relationships that you’ve had with your mobility aids, how you’ve basically transformed how you feel and view the mobility aids in your life, um, and ends with great love, and I would really love to hear kind of from you, about how you’ve made that transition, because you might know that I work as a Provisional Psychologist and I mainly work with people that have disabilities or chronic health conditions and so many people struggle with the idea, even, of using a mobility aid, um, and people that are newly diagnosed or even people that have lived with disabilities their entire life, um, so how did you make that transition?

Z: Ahh [Zoes laughs] With great difficulty, to be perfectly honest, because there is so much stigma around mobility aids and it was really hard, I remember wanting to use mobility aids for such a long time, and you know, trying to hold yourself to ableist standards, like you can walk around the gallery and stand for an hour and walk around Melbourne, that’s fine. No it wasn’t fine [Zoe laughs sarcastically]. You know, it would often lead to a flare and making it worse, and you know, you’d often think to yourself, oh, you push through, and you’re not disabled enough, but you know, pushing through only makes it worse. Um, and I vividly remember the day I used a mobility aid for the first time. I was seeing a gallery with a friend, and I was just in so much pain, I felt like I was going to burst into tears with every step, it was just agony everywhere. Um, and you know, I asked for the first time, you know, do you have any mobility aids for hire? And anyway so I ended up using a wheelchair for the first time, and it was such an emotional experience because it helped me so much, like, I couldn’t believe I could just exist without exasperating pain in every one of my movement, like I was in pain, but it wasn’t as bad, and you know, I could just enjoy the sh-the gallery, I didn’t have to leave early because of my pain, and I almost cried, that’s how much it made an impact to me, and you know, I remember wanting to use one again and um, trialling different ones, and you know, even my medical team, are like why do you want to do that? It’s like, I don’t know, moving easier, that sounds nice? Um, so I eventually mastered up the courage to get a walking stick, and eventually my own wheelchair and um, it still is very hard, I’m still very nervous using it, like, um, you know around people that haven’t seen me in a wheelchair before, ah, I’m going to an event tonight where I’m going to be using a chair for the first time around some people and I’m so so so so so terrified, of you know, their judgement and their internalised stigma and ableism.

L: So can you, tonight, you’re going to this event, what do you do? I mean how do you deal with that first moment, with that anxiety and worry about what they’re going to think, what they’re going to do, all of that? How do you deal with that? 

Z: Oh, I am so anxious, um. But my first, uh step was mentioning it. I mean I was so anxious about this, I literally spoke to my psychologist for like half an hour about it, like wahhh. Um {Zoe laughs]. But, eh, just, you know, oh hey by the way, um, I may need to bring my wheelchair, so, you know, um. I am still so nervous though, um, also about like, is the location accessible, I don’t know, like, um, so how I’m going to deal with that is, I guess just use the mobility aid even though I feel so anxious, I feel so imposter-symdrome-ey, you know, just being like, no I do need this, don’t let that little inner ableism voice tell you that you don’t because you do. 

L: I really like that. I think that distinction between the inner voice that is internalised ableism that we all get in society because ableism is everywhere, so we all internalise these ideas even if we don’t realise them, and then being able to distinguish between okay, that’s my internalised ableism voice talking right now versus this is what my body’s telling me right now and I’m going to listen to my body versus my internalised ableism voice and just let it be there. 

Z: Absolutely. And it’s just wild how pervasive the ableism is. Like I posted a picture of myself in a chair for the first time and like that was such a happy, joyful moment for me, like yes freedom, woohoo, life changing. And then someone messaged me saying like, oh it made me so sad to see you in that chair, just so sad. It’s like, why? I’m not sad, I’m very happy. I’m sad about the slopes and the fact that I can’t afford a good chair, but you know, pretty good otherwise, it’s just–

L: I got a very similar reaction even, not even to using mobility aids, just to posting the first photo that I ever posted with my legs kind of exposed, and I got these reactions of like, why are you doing that? You know, aren’t you worried about what people are going to say, um, which was exactly the opposite to what I was feeling, I was feeling such a big relief, it was like a massive, like a mountain off my shoulders that I don’t have to hide anymore, that’s it. 

Z: Like even if you don’t show these things you’re still experiencing them, and people are still experiencing them, so we have to share. Like how else will you know that other people have these other experiences and these barriers that we need to address if we don’t talk about it and share about it, and also, you know, pride in disability? That’s–

L: Well it’s exactly the opposite, I think pride is almost like the opposite of shame. And when we hide or we feel like we have to hide, there’s like shame on top of our experience that we’re going to be having anyway. So I’ll have a pain, or fatigue or whatever it is, symptoms that I’ve got. And then if I feel shame about it, it’s– just creates so much more suffering and then replacing that shame with pride, just makes things so much easier because you can actually feel allowed to using mobility aid, or feel allowed to sit down on the train, or um, so feeling allowed to do those things is such a big relief. 

[Theme song plays]. 

L: Now so all those experiences that we’re talking about, all the recent works that you’ve had, is all created here in Melbourne, in Naarm. Can you, but you’re not from here originally. So can you tell us about why you moved, where you moved from, a little bit if you want, um, but why you moved and how was that transition, because I mean, moving is a big thing for anyone, let alone someone that experiences the things that you’re experiencing. 

Z: Um, well, so I was born in, uh, Campbelltown, but when I was around 10 or so we moved to the south coast of New South Wales. Um, you know, I then moved for uni, um, to Wollongong, bit later on, um, and, you know, I moved to Melbourne in 2018 and you know, 2017, 2018 were honestly really not a great year for me, um, bit of a trigger warning here, I guess for mental health and, um, suicide, um, but. I was just really not in a good place. Like I was working a job that was so exhausting, with like, it was like two hours travel everyday and it was full time hours and like they expect you to do like extra hours as well, unpaid, and it was just so exhausting, and I remember coming home every day and just sobbing about how miserable I was and then, um, some other not-so-great things happened, um, like my, uh, I was living with my nan briefly, um, who has quite bad dementia, um, and then a long-term relationship broke up, pets died. Um, I didn’t have anywhere stable to live, so I was kinda couch surfing, um, I was drinking way too much. Um, if I’m being honest I think at once stage it was almost everyday and I was just so sad. I just, I just wanted the pain to end. Um, so you know, I knew I needed to change something especially because I, uh, you know, ah, well [Zoe clears throat], I tried to take my life, I was quite close and the last second I stopped, because I got, I felt guilty about the person who would find my body [Zoe sniffs]. I felt too guilty and, you know, too guilty about making my mum cry, so I didn’t, but I knew I obviously needed to change. I don’t think I would be here if I hadn’t, so. I just decided to have a fresh break, so I packed up everything I owned into my little Toyota Corolla, drove ten hours by myself and moved into a friend’s spare room. Um, eventually got my own place, but I definitely think doing that saved my life, and also a lot of great experiences and things that I wouldn’t have learnt or done if I hadn’t have made that move. 

L: Thank you so much for sharing Zoe and I appreciate your honesty and how hard it is to share this, but, I’m, I’m so grateful that you’re sharing because it’s such an important experience to talk about. 

Z: Ah, you know, this not talking about literally kills people. And you know, not talking about it, as we said, you know, makes you feel like it’s shameful, and it’s it’s not, it is okay not be okay, it is not your fault, and you know, we don’t really address that in our society, um, you know, you’re just told to get over it, or you know, stop being an attention seeker, it’s like well I would like medical attention, does that count? [Zoe scoffs]. 

L: So there’s a lot of really unhelpful responses to people sharing how much they’re struggling. I guess, when you were feeling like that was there anyone in particular, or anything in particular that you found really helpful or something that you think, this is how someone can help?

Z: I mean I think the most important thing, whether it’s mental illness or chronic illness or disability or really anything that impacts you, like, just believe them. Um, it’s really hard to talk about it, and especially um, you know, I remember telling a family member that I had bipolar and they were, they were not pleased, they were basically, you know, ashamed of me, like, yeah, it wasn’t, it wasn’t a great experience, and that’s definitely not how you support someone with mental illness. Um, you know, even small things can help so much, like from a mental illness perspective, like you know, just reminding you that you are loved, that you are not a burden, that the, the nasty voices in your mind are not accurate, like all those things, just reminding that you are valued, you are loved, you are worthy and you have a place in this world, you know. I mean practical things, like you know, for example, helping cleaning, helping do errands, just helping do basic stuff that’s so much harder when you experience a disability, um, you know, just imagine what it’d be like if you were experiencing that, and what would you want?

L: Yeah, believing is such a big thing that your point about being believed brings me to my experience of, as a disabled girl and a teenager, I experienced quite a lot of sexual harassment and also sexual assault, and I wasn’t believed. One experience I have had, I was fourteen and I was walking one day from, I was leaving, um a clinic, and a taxi driver approached me and started making very inappropriate comments about my body and about sex. Um, he was getting closer to me and approaching me and I was on crutches, I had a massive brace on my leg, it wasn’t like a situation where I could run anywhere. Ah, there was no-one else around, it was empty street in a really quiet town where we were living, and I was just imagining how he was just going to just shove me in taxi, and just drive and no-one would know, or my house was down the road, I was just, I knew that if I crossed the road to my house, he would just, I could just imagine him following me. Luckily didn’t happen beyond that, I managed to walk over to a neighbour’s house and he eventually left, but I am still carrying that trauma, um, until this day and I guess being in that position where I couldn’t run away, I couldn’t defend myself, I was on crutches, and he knew that, and I could see in this eyes and in the way that he was talking to me that he knew that, and he was targeting me for that reason, um. It was, terrifying and still to this day when I walk down the street, and I’m limping, I think who is around? Who is watching me, and if I’m limping are they, they’re going to target me? And yeah some other experiences of being sexually assaulted, which I’m not going to share the details of, but, ah, what is important for me to share is that I wasn’t believed and it was in a, I was assaulted by a doctor, who was examining me for my disability, so if I didn’t have a disability I wouldn’t have even been in that room. So, yeah thank you for listening to my story, I guess the question that I wanted to ask you, Zoe, without going into any details at all from your experience and what your perspective, what do you think we can do to make the world a safer place for disabled girls and women?

Z: Ah, I mean firstly I just wanna say I’m so sorry you experienced that and honestly I have had this conversation with so many, you know, people, and I-I haven’t spoken to a single woman who had not experienced some form of harassment or assault, and obviously when you have other aspects of intersectionality like, you know disability or race, or you know, LGBTQIA+ people, it only makes it, you know, more, so it’s, it’s, I think it’s a lot more prominent than what statistics say, like they only say that one in four women have been [Zoe laughs disbelievingly] sexually harassed, like that is, that is not accurate. I would–

L: Well, absolutely, sorry and I was just going to say, my experiences are not counted in any statistics because no-one recorded that experience, so 

Z: Um, you know, even before I realised I was disabled, I experienced things, um, like I remember when I was fourteen and I was wearing my favourite skirt and a group of older men drove past and they were, you know, wolf-whistling, and making comments and I was just sitting alone at a bus station with, you know, like no-one else around, like, I–who knows what they could have done and I didn’t even recognise at the time, my fourteen-year-old brain was, like, oh thanks for the compliment, which now I’m like, that is disgusting, you are adult men preying on a child. 

L: It’s disgusting anyway, no-one should be doing that, no matter how old those men were, and no matter how old you were, that’s unacceptable behaviour, but that’s the message we get told as girls, and then we internalise that is that you know, that any attention is good attention, so if someone like grabs you in the middle of a nightclub, you know that means that you’re valuable. 

Z: Yeah, oh you’re wanted, ooh. You know you can do all the things to protect yourself and you can still get sexually assaulted and harassed and the fact that most of these things actually happen, you know, in the home, and um, I’m not, I don’t think I’m open to talking about this necessarily publicly, but I have experienced it, unfortunately, more than once. Um, it’s just, really terrifying how pervasive it is and you know, I often use my walking stick and I wonder if, you know, that makes me stand out to predators, but in my brain I’m also like well if someone attacks me, I have a stick to hit them with, so that’s a pro. [Zoe and Liel laugh]. 

L: I think that all the time about my walking stick, [Zoe laughs], I’m like – great weapon. 

Z: Honestly I don’t know what to do that could help it but I think at least talking about it and recognising this is a bigger problem than what we think it is.

L: Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing Zoe, and I, I’m also sorry, t–so sorry to hear about your experiences, they are horrific, and no-one should ever experience those traumas. 

Z: And I think, you know, talking about these attitudes and things that contribute to this, is very important, like you know, tackling misogyny and you know, not just, you know, the thing like not all men, but no, not all men, obviously, but enough that it’s a very very very big problem, and like if you’re not harassing or assaulting people, that’s that’s that’s great, that shouldn’t be applauded that should just be being a human, but, you know you have to recognise that you’re a part of a structure that does, you know, have these impacts. 

L: I agree. Now with all of that I’m so, I just feel so enriched by our conversation and I would really like to hear from you Zoe, about what does intersectionality mean to you? 

Z: So I guess intersectionality, as I said, it’s not something I necessarily considered impacted me, and I think that’s something that a lot of people probably experience, like you don’t realise that you’re part of these things and I kind of think that might be intentional, because it’s the privileged parties who benefit from that, um, like there’s a lot of benefits to recognising your intersectionality and the things that impact you and, you know, the structures that all combine together to create all these different problems. Um, you know, if we don’t realise that, we can’t change it, so, um, you know, even just talking about it, and thinking about it, and recognising it has such huge impacts and you know, the fact that I didn’t realise I was disabled for so long, despite having it my whole life and being affected by it by whole life, you know. You really don’t think about it until someone unlocks that box and you’re like oh. 

L: Oh before we go, can you share, where can people find you?

Z: Well I have a website which lists all my information and the work I’ve done, um, so that’s www.zoesimmons.com.au, um, I’m also on Twitter, @itbeginswithz, I’m on Instagram @somethingbeginningwithz, and I have Facebook which is I think Zoe Simmons journalist, and LinkedIn, so like any of those work, but um, if you just Google Zoe Simmons journalist, I should come up, or at least my website should. 

L: Thank you Zoe [theme music plays]. And we’ll put all of those links in the show notes, so people can just go down and click on them right now and find you, support your work, and get in touch. Thank you so much Zoe for coming to Unmarginalised, it was such a pleasure to talk to you today. 

Z: Woo, thank you. 

L: Before we go, a grateful thanks to the City of Melbourne Arts Grant 2022 for supporting this episode and the entire second season of the (Un)marginalised podcast. I would also like to respectively acknowledge the traditional owners of the land of which this episode was produced, the Boon Wurroung people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respect to their elders past, present, and emerging. As we tell our stories, I want to highlights the traditional owners of this land have been storytellers for generations. If you enjoyed or learned something from the episode, please rate, review, and share it with a curious person in your life. 

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