Season 2 Episode 3: JESS

KAPUSCINSKI-

EVANS

Bearbrass Asylum Orchestra website  : http://www.bearbrassasylumorchestra.com and YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZZXdvBfZWTSIbUJsbY78zA 

• Waiting Room Arts Company website: https://thewaitingroomartsco.blogspot.com/?fbclid=IwAR2Qe1IM6P-fOR9uX2ol8JIozSJnBp79SasBNfuH5Oy4ZkC9Xjpm02aMhFs 

• Jess on Twitter (https://twitter.com/jkewh) , Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/jkewh/)  and Tik tok (https://www.tiktok.com/@jesskapuscinskievans) 

• To support the ongoing making of the podcast, go to Liel’s Patreon account on: https://www.patreon.com/LielKBridgford

• You can find the complete transcripts of the episodes on http://lkbridgford.com/unmarginalised-podcast

• If you need support after listening – you can contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 in Australia (24/7). If you’re anywhere else, you can find support here: https://www.befrienders.org

To continue the conversation, go to Liel’s Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lielkbridgford/, Twitter https://twitter.com/LielKBridgford or Facebook https://www.facebook.com/lielkbridgford

Please note views expressed by podcast interviewees do not necessarily reflect the views of Liel or the Kultivate team.

Episode Transcript

Theme music

Liel (L): Shalom everybody. I’m Liel K Bridgford. This is (Un)marginalised. Before we jump in, please note that the following episode contains discussions about ableism. So please take care as you listen and check out our show notes for support options.

L:This week on the show, I have Jess Kapuscinski-Evans. Jess is a theatre maker, sings with the “Crip folk” trio the Bearbrass Asylum Orchestra, and recently formed the Waiting Room Arts Company, which commissions work in a range of disciplines by emerging artists. Jess won a Green Room Award for her role in A Normal Child. And in her writing, she enjoys playing with existing texts, music, and other pop culture references. Welcome, Jess. 

Jess (J): Hi [laughs]

L: So Jess can you start by telling us about kind of what aspects of intersectionality do you navigate? 

J: Ooo, okay, so when I, when I do public gigs, now I, and especially because this is an audio format, um, I describe myself as a smallish woman in a large wheelchair. And I also describe myself as quad and anxious, um, which is kind of like a shorthand for my day to day experiences without giving people my full medical history. My political view about that is that, that sort of stuff is between me and my doctor. [Jess laughs]. Whereas, you know, some people like to shout it from the rooftops, what conditions they have, and blah, blah, blah. So that’s an ongoing thing in disability spaces. Um, and then I, I also um identify as queer, and I guess, yeah, most of my artistic stuff has a, definitely has a disability connection. And then a lot of the time but not always, has a queer connection. Yeah.

L: And do you have a feeling of when you first kind of realised you sort of belong to all these groups?

J: So, I should also say, again, because this is an audio format, I have cisgendered privilege and white privilege as well, which I’ve only just sort of started to kind of come into, but I guess I, what I can share about my disability is that I became disabled when I was 18 months old. So there’s so there’s this funny photograph that my parents have of me walking, and I have blonde hair, um and so the joke is that that’s not me. [Jess laughs] 

L: Yeah. 

J: I have no memory of being anything other than a quad woman. Um, so, so I’ve known my whole life, that I was disabled, and I suppose, quote, unquote, different from a lot of the population. Especially because I was, so I was fortunate enough to go to mainstream schooling, and that was good for my education, but I was, to use this sort of funny expression, I was a lot of the time, the only crip in the village. [Jess laughs]. So I always knew that. And then I think I had my first crush on a lady when I was about 13. So I think I’ve always known that I was queer, but I’ve had, um, I suppose peaks and troughs of like, expressing that identity and then in practice, also I’m discovering that there are a few obstacles to being a full member of the queer community if you have the, um, extended disabilities that I have. So that’s, that’s kind of my new adventure [Jess laughs].

L: And I was wondering about that, because I read an interview that you’ve done a few years back and you mentioned that a lot of queer spaces aren’t wheelchair accessible as one of the examples and I was wondering, you know, has that sort of changed in recent years? Um, or you know, how, how do you find that?

J: Yeah, so, it depends, I suppose what you mean by a queer space. So If I find that a lot of, for example, theatre shows, or, um, you know, artistic output by openly queer people, um tends to be in accessible venues. Um, but then if you’re talking about things like sex on premises type places, or some queer only nightclubs, they have steps, or like, so there’s one venue, which has a ramp to get into the ground floor part. But then the rest of the venue is steps only. And I mean, it’s, it’s kind of it’s not the queer community’s fault, per se, because renovations to old buildings are expensive, and the government, um, is yet to assist with that in any way. And definitely, I think, what I experience when I go to queer events that are physically accessible, certainly, again, I’m the only one with an obvious disability in that audience, or whatever.

L: And is there anything that you kind of think you would like people to know about what it means for you belonging to all these different communities and having this, you know, being multiply marginalised I guess?

J: Definitely, in general, I think there’s a problem with folk who are marginalised where it’s like, because you’re marginalised, you spend all your time and energy fighting for your immediate needs, um. Or, or like, sort of, by extension, I spend the bulk of my time thinking about disability stuff. And I’ve only just now gone on a, but I need to be thinking about all the aspects of my identity. I need to assess how to engage with communities whose experience are not mine, so trans folk, migrant refugee folk, Indigenous folk, all this kind of stuff, um. I think it requires people who are, who might only have one marginal identity, if they have the energy and brain space to think how they can advocate for somebody else. You know, obviously, [with] meaningful dialogue and stuff because, you know, sometimes, like, allies are good, but they need to know, when they’re doing the right thing. And when they’re actually just making shit worse.

L: [Liel laughs] Yep. And um, I hope that things like this podcast will help people figure out ways to do that. And if they are, like you say, marginalised only in one way, or maybe two ways that are different. We can sort of come together, um, hopefully, to kind of create improvements. And I guess you mentioned before about how disability is almost always a part of your art practice, and sometimes being queer as well. Can you tell us about your art practice a little bit? What do you do? What do you love? 

J: I usually tell people that I have a love of dragons and explosions. [Jess laughs]. And like, I firstly come from a place of pop culture like that. But kind of taking those things from film, TV, novels, and going well, what would happen if I put that on the stage? What would that look like? I think that’s a huge part of my practice. And then, and then the next sort of layer on top of that is, especially when I’m writing fiction is what would it look like if this character from Harry Potter was, in fact, a character who was clearly autistic or blind or whatever? [Jess laughs] Yeah. And so that’s, that’s kind of how I write fiction and then I do a bit of poetry. And that’s very much I suppose, based on my, my lived experiences. Um. When I write poetry, I’m always thinking to write it in language that is not too flowery, for lack of a better word. So that it’s accessible to somebody who maybe has never read a poem before in their life, or never heard a poem before. And then my band. So most of the stuff we’ve written is about being queer and disabled. And we do, so some of our stuff we wrote, and then some of our stuff, we’ve appropriated songs by white men. 

L: Yep. 

J: Same thing. What does it look like if it’s sung by a woman with an obvious physical disability?

L: I love that. And I haven’t heard you. I’ve heard your poetry, but I haven’t heard any of your band work. So I would love to experience that one day, that will be amazing.

J: If you look at the band website now. It’s a guy called Tim Hackett, who was the guitarist, but he’s left. And so now we’re actually an all-girl group, which is super cool, yeah.

L: and I’ve, I mean, thank you for sharing about your art practice. I love how you describe your writing fiction and creating kind of theatre. What is, and also I don’t know if you feel that, but I mean, when I read your work, I feel a lot of humour and sarcasm. 

J: Yeah. 

L: I mean, I really enjoy that. I mean, are you happy for me to read? There’s a par- There’s an excerpt from Spaced that you published in 2018. On the Waiting Room Art Company’s website, and are you happy for me to read a little bit from there? 

J: Yeah, yeah. 

L: Here we go. ‘You can be a noddy,  and an able bod if you really try. Just take some uppers and soldier on. It’s good to have your friends around you even if all you do together is sit in silence. If you just move your limbs that way and your head that way no one will notice. You’ll be as normal as possible. As functional as possible. There! You look just like a regular person. Especially if I Photoshop out the control box on your left and the head rest behind your head. If I do a few touch ups I can get rid of those bags under your eyes’. Jess, can you tell us about that?

J: Yeah, um, so Okay, so Spaced. So Liel was involved in the first kind of proper presentation of Spaced. So it was a it was a thing around, um, I guess, trying to discuss, um, similarities and differences between folks with physical impairments, people who are Deaf, and people with psychosocial disabilities, like anxiety, depression, but obviously, more than that, um. Based on my experience of being, like I said, both quad and anxious and sort of realising that there was this divide, where, um, people with physical impairments don’t always include people with, um, psychosocial stuff, um, in disability spaces. And then similarly, people with psychosocial impairments don’t, uh, speak publicly about broader disability issues. So it was my way of trying to bring those communities together, I suppose. And that poem was kind of about, I mean, it came from this thing of how they Photoshop people in magazines, um, but I guess what I was trying to say was about how, um, I used to try to hide various things, but also, I think there’s a tendency for lots of folks with disabilities to be as kind of, um, hidden or inconspicuous as possible. And that actually, that does more damage than, you know. Just I think, what is it Macy Gray says, like, letting your fleet freak flags fly? Oh, that’s a mouthful. [Liel and Jess laugh]

L: Definitely. And I think the that kind of, um, passage or poem is definitely very relatable because absolutely, so many people experience that, of the feeling of needing to hide, and, you know, I’ve experienced that a lot, um, growing up, and it’s something that’s very difficult to step out of, I guess or change because, I mean, I’ve explicitly been told growing up to hide my leg, you know, and that’s not even considering all the little ways that we get told that implicitly. And what do you think is the role of I guess humour in your art? Do you kind of use it in a, um, conscious way? Or does it just kind of come out? Or what? You know, what’s that like?

J: A little bit of both. I um, I do feel like I tell people that humour is my default setting, um and that sometimes it gets me into trouble. [Jess laughs] Because I make inappropriate jokes, but also, um, so there was a very famous, I think it was a PhD thesis written many years ago, called Laughing at the Disabled. So it was basically about a film that was a comedy, with actors with disabilities, and characters with disabilities. And basically, it was sort of talking about how it’s okay to laugh at and with us in certain contexts, kind of the same as you would with any other person, rather than feeling like oh, you know, disability must be taken seriously. And isn’t it tragic that Jess is in a wheelchair and stuff like that? So I, I think, so I used to write exclusively more comic stuff. Then I kind of realised that actually, that ignores or brushes over some of the things that need to be spoken. So now I use the Star Wars analogy to try and balance the dark and the light side of the Force [Jess chuckles], whenever I write

L: That’s lovely. I also have, kind of read again, some of the poems from Spaced and one of them that really stood out to me was the first one that was actually in the zine that was published in, was it 2021 that we did that? 

J: Yeah

L: Yeah, last year. And I think the poem is called The Doctor Birth Birthed Me, is that the name of the poem? 

J: Yeah. 

L: Are you okay if I? Or would you like to read the first stanza?

J: Oh no, you can read it

L: I can read it, okay. ‘The doctor birthed me. And all was well, till I was pronounced disabled. No matter the jargon, no matter the word. I’d now be stuck with a label.’ Jess, for me, when I read this poem, and this is obviously just the first stanza of it, I get that feeling of being unheard. Um, which is so relatable as a disabled kind of female, I guess, especially. What do you think is the role of art in kind of creating opportunities for us to be heard as people who are multiply-marginalised? You know, in a society that often doesn’t allow that?

J: So I think I kind of keep changing my mind about this, um, as I go through my writing, so I used to be like, yes, art can change the world. And now, I reckon, actually, art by itself, is not enough, I would say, um, which is why I’d started doing some, quote, unquote, Activism with a capital A [Jess chuckles]. I think certainly, the reason I started creating poetry and theatre and stuff, was sort of a way of venting, like, um, art therapy, but without calling it that [Jess chuckles]. 

L: Yeah. 

J: Um, and, and that continues to be an aspect of how I work, I suppose. Yeah, like, I think if you, if there’s no other space, that you can be heard, then at least you can, you know, put yourself on YouTube or you know, something, um, and maybe someone will listen. But I think um, I also have observed that more practically, people who are so marginalised, that, again, they’re just fighting for their sort of right to exist almost, don’t have the money or the time to actually invest in being an artist. So I actually think that we have a long way to go in kind of in the arts land, especially to achieving a more representative kind of landscape.

L: And I definitely agree with that. I think even going through and trying to find people to interview for this season, you know, I really want to find people that – I want it to be a diverse season and an interesting season. And I want to be able to give people voices, especially people that don’t have that platform on a regular basis, but it’s kind of difficult to reach sometimes. And there’s kind of the disconnect between what’s happening [theme music playing] and some, a lot of people absolutely. [pause] And I really enjoyed that description of how, you know, you just kind of stepped into or moved towards, like, the activism side of things. What’s been like, you know, the activism with a capital A?

J: So well, it’s very early days yet, but essentially, my, my kind of main interest at the moment is around, um, more public transport and accessible public transport, and kind of making it a viable alternative to driving a car for as many people as possible. So I guess I, my, one of my new things is that I’ve been thinking about kind of the intersection between disability kind of issues and environment stuff, um, yeah. And I think, for me, that’s the transport thing. And then also housing, you know, how can we build affordable housing that is also accessible and environmentally friendly?

L: I really love to see the kind of intersection or the overlap between activism and art, because I think so many. I mean, from my experience, anyway, obviously, it’s not generalisation. But a lot of artists have these kinds of big questions in mind, as we’re creating whatever art we’re creating, or as we’re just thinking about creating those things are in the back of our mind, or at the very front of our mind, depending on what’s happening in our lives. So thank you for all that work Jess. Very important. And I’m wondering if we can talk about the theatre a little bit, you know, you mentioned a bit a little bit of the process of why how you imagine it, how it works. But can you talk about what’s drawn you to it? I guess, initially. And also, I’m really curious about what it’s like to be in that industry, because as you said before, about, you know, going to like a theatre show, for example, can be quite inaccessible. And I know that even when I kind of go to performing even just spoken word, um, venues, they are often inaccessible. So what’s it like in terms of accessibility and inclusion in those spaces?

J: Yeah so because I work a little bit across different art forms, I get a little sneaky peek into each one. Um, so a lot of theatre venues have at least some, if not really good access for wheelchairs, whereas lot of live music venues, and as you mentioned, spoken word venues have zero access. So, um, it’s, it’s a very, um, big kind of mixture, I suppose. Um, and then, mostly, I think, where the intervention needs to be is like, yes, I’ve spoke, like, we know about the thing of like, I would like to see disabled characters cast and disabled actors, but I think the intervention needs to be more around, wow do we design a theatre? And then also, I think, we need to have performances, I mean, works that are when they’re written, but then also when they begin the production process, take into consideration a whole bunch of access techniques, so that like, for example, so that there’s not just one Auslan night, but wouldn’t it be great if every performance was, had an Auslan version or something, you know, so I think you know, and some of these things are harder than others. But I feel like if the arts was actually properly funded [haha laugh] we would do some of that.

L: And I think when I was reading through some of your writing for one of your theatre productions, there was in the writing, there was kind of often mentions of the Auslan interpreter as a part of that. That seems like you’ve written that in, in the process from the start, is that right? 

J: Yeah, yeah. So that’s, um, that’s Murder she Dictated. It’s, I suppose, thinking about a quadriplegic woman at the centre of a murder mystery. Um, and so with my theatre work, where possible, I tried to do it as a devised, a group devised project. Cause I find it very hard to sit still by myself in a room and write, um I much prefer to, um write with other people. So we had a Deaf writer/performer, and corresponding Auslan interpreter that we worked into the show.

L: That’s beautiful. And I mean, people might not realise some of the Spaced. I mean, the project that was happening last year, was there was very much that process of creating and writing together, which I found so rich, and, um, just really meaningful. I don’t know, there was something really special about that just sitting together on Zoom. But still, it was together and knowing that you and the other artists there were writing at the same time or thinking at the same time, at least as me was, I don’t know, kind of made my brain tick in a different way. And what about Murder she Dictated? Is that something that people can go and watch? Or what’s the kind of, where is that at?

J: So the short answer is, I have no idea, um.

L: Okay. [Liel laughs] 

J: The long answer is, I’m planning to finish the script, um, by the end of this year, and then then we’ll be looking at sort of presentation opportunities. One feature of the Waiting Room Arts Company as well, is that we’re hoping to have a kind of live component and an online or take home component for each project. Um, for Spaced, that meant the zine. But we’re gonna look into things like having a pay per view system for, you know, performances and stuff, as well as this measure for, um, people who, even before COVID couldn’t leave the house.

L: And that’s a great, definitely a great option. What do you feel, you know, what would you like to see, as we’re kind of emerging from, I guess, a lot of restrictions? What would you like to see happening across? You know, the art sector in terms of in real life, online, accessibility? What would you kind of in an ideal world? What would you like, love to see?

J: So I guess, um, you’ll notice on my description of Waiting Room Arts Company that I define what an emerging artist is. Um, and this is a this is hot property in in arts land, because, um, I actually have stopped calling myself an emerging artist, I probably would now say I’m, early to mid career. Reason for that is partly the green, Green Room award. Um, because I, um, my observation is that there are people working in the industry, who have been working for many, many years, and still call themselves emerging. And I think the reason for this is because they know that that’s how they’ll get funding. And I think that’s not a sustainable way of working, nor is it fair to say someone who is, you know, a uni student or, you know, just fresh out of high school, and wanting to try and get a grant, but competing with all these kind of, quote unquote, elders, right. Not that elders shouldn’t be funded, but it’s, it’s a question of, by the time you’ve been working for a certain amount of time, you have connections, you also know how the industry works. You also know how to write a grant application, [Jess clears throat]. And so I think we need to reassess more generally the kind of categories of funding. And then I guess the reason I, um, put Waiting Room as a commissioning company, is that I think that the, the thing of actors with disabilities playing characters with disabilities, it’s only really one part of the solution that it needs to happen at the level of, you know, the people who are in charge of creation. So whether it’s directors, writers, curators, you know, all these kinds of positions need to be people with disabilities, for there to be meaningful change. Ah, and the same with other marginalised people, too, although I will say there’s a lot of gay white men already, but you know, so bring on the lesbians [Jess and Liel laugh]. 

L: Definitely.

J: I think those are the main ones. And also, I think, I would like to see online stuff beyond just Netflix, and, you know, all the streaming services, even if we, we never have another lockdown again, because I think that just opens things up for so many people. Yeah.

L: And unfortunately we have seen that being dropped already, in a lot of, um, events. A lot of events have now said they’re only doing in-person and wouldn’t record and wouldn’t stream online which is such a shame. 

J: But also sometimes like, um, you know, with, depending on the project, it’s nice to have a, a physical object, that you can take away, so if you go and see an art exhibition, can you buy a painting and then have it in your home or something like that? So, I think there’s something deeply sort of, um, personal and lovely about that way of working as well. 

L: I mean obviously people can’t see you, but you’ve, kind of leaned back a little bit before. I guess, I’m wondering if that’s something you want to share in terms of, how your, I mean you mentioned your disability kind of obviously influencing your art, but is there any way, any other ways it sort of physically can be unexpected, you know unexpected things can happen, and how that influenced your art, your practice, maybe, I mean, yeah anything like that you’d like to share? 

J: So I guess like, um, this is not the case for everyone who’s quad, but for me, I have a lot of things where I feel unwell or just tired. So, um one of the things is that when I write, I often write, um, short, bite-sized pieces at a time. Um, so I, I always like to explain to people, that when you go to drama school or any of those kind of, institutions, there’s the expectation that you’ll work 10 hours a day, 12 days a week, blah blah blah. And that model is not, definitely not sustainable for me, but I would argue that it’s not a model that’s really sustainable for anyone. Um, so part of it is going, okay today I will just write one poem, or I will just focus on two scenes of a play or something like that, you know. Um, and I guess, I guess like with my music, it’s been an ongoing thing, because I have limited lung capacity, um, so I’m in the wrong profession is what I— [Liel laughs]. Um, how to make the most out of my body, um, in a way that, so it sounds good, but I don’t kill myself in the process.

L: Thank you for sharing that, I think that’s a really good point, and I think that a lot of the time, there’s expect- there’s particular expectations around, and I spoke about that in my last interview with Renay Barker-Mulholland as well, particular expectations about what, art should look like or be like, and I think sometimes, even that idea of you having to practice everyday for a particular amount of time, is really unrealistic for a lot of people, myself included. And it’s really important to acknowledge that and for people on the other side of it, you know, reading grant applications, or commissioning, or creating a lineup for something, to understand that and to, for that not to be a barrier. And we’ve touched on it in different ways, but if there’s something that you haven’t said about what does intersectionality mean to you?

J: Put it this way, my, my, latest thought process is around, um, so being a queer woman with, um, the level of disability that I have, um, you can make premises accessible and that’s fairly easy, but um, the intervention that I don’t have the answer to, is, um, is other queer woman finding me desirable, you know. I think, um society, kind of, um, views the disabled body, as kind of ugly, and all these sorts of things, um, so I think that’s, that’s the, that’s where I’m feeling the intersectionality of my different identities, and then also just like, having to sort of re-learn my history, you know, um, er, key disabled folk from the past, but then also, you know, um, you know, feminist history, queer history, all these things that I should know by now, because it’s been a part of my identity for a long time. But I’m only just starting to now, read those texts, you know, so. Yeah. Cause I think you have to know where you come from in order to know where you’re going. 

L: I agree. Now the last thing is, where can people find you? And how can people support your work, you know all of our listeners should go right now to do that, so tell us what’s the best way to do it.

J: Okay so, um, maybe Liel, the simplest thing is if I send you websites and YouTube, um, but basically The Waiting Room Arts Company, and the Bearbrass Asylum Orchestra has a website and YouTube, um, and the Waiting Room Arts Company website has, I tried to, ah, as often as possible, post excerpts of, whatever the Company is working on, um, on, on that website. And then, um, pretty soon I hope to share work that’s, say been done by, artists who might have worked with the Company, but, but work that they’ve done elsewhere in the world, just to get a sense of, you know, who, who we work with, I support. Um, and then, yeah, and then Bearbrass, like I said, has a YouTube, and we’re hoping to put some more stuff there, and I’ve been converted to TikTok lately. 

[Theme music starts]

L: Oh, have you?

J: Yes. 

L: Okay, so I will put all of those links in the show notes for people to just check out, so click on those links and go and find all those fantastic works. Thanks Jess. Thank you so much for coming to Unmarginalised, it was such a pleasure. 

J: Thank you. 

L: Before we go, a grateful thanks to the City of Melbourne Arts Grant 2022, for supporting this episode and the entire second season of the (Un)marginalised podcast. I would also like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this episode was produced, the BoonWurroung people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging. As we tell our stories, I want to highlight the traditional owners of this land have been storytellers for generations. If you enjoyed or learned something from the episode, please rate, review and share it with a curious person in your life. 

[Theme music fades out]