Connect with Renay: https://www.firstnationsfeminist.com/, Twitter, and Instagram. 

• To support the ongoing making of the podcast, go to Liel’s Patreon account 

• If you need support after listening – you can contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 in Australia (24/7). If you’re anywhere else, you can find support here: https://www.befrienders.org

To continue the conversation, go to Liel’s Instagram , Twitter, Facebook, or LinkedIn. 

Please note views expressed by podcast interviewees do not necessarily reflect the views of Liel or the Kultivate team.

Episode Transcript

[Theme music]

Liel: Shalom, everybody. I’m Liel K. Bridgford and this is a Ummarginalsed. Before we jump in, please note that the following episode contains discussions about mental health, poverty and ableism. So please take care as you listen and check out our show notes for support options. This week, I have an amazing guest, Renay. Renay Barker-Mulholland Biripi and Daingatti woman who identifies as Black, disabled and a staunch feminist. Did I pronounce everything okay?

Renay: You did. You did wonderfully. Thank you so much. 

L: Of course, um, and welcome to and Unmarginalised.

R: I’m very, very happy to be here.

L: So can we start with what intersections of identity do you navigate?

[Theme song fades out].

R: Um, so the one that I’ve lived with the longest is being First Nations person, Aboriginal Indigenous depends on who you’re asking what they identify with. I don’t mind all of the above. But so my mobs are Birpi and Daingatti, which well done on getting them because I know they can be a little bit of a mouthful. So Birpi and Daingatti lands are situated east coast, sort of New South Wales, bit further up from Sydney, not too far. And I call it heaven on earth. But you know, that’s just me. It’s where the mountains meet the ocean. And life is just a bit a little bit more special. For me. 

L: Sounds beautiful. 

R: Yeah. I mean, I don’t remember when I first knew I’m Aboriginal, it was just a, it was just a thing that I was, it’s kind of like, when you come to realise you’re a person. And then as a person, I was an Aboriginal person. So that is the identity, the identity that I have lived with the longest. Um, I’m disabled. So I define them as being mobility limiting, um and I also suffer chronic pain, um and I also have a psychosocial illnesses. So what’s probably more commonly referred to as mental illnesses, so major depression, and um, anxiety. And I think, um, those identities are really important to recognise, because, you know, being an Aboriginal person in a wheelchair quite often, those are the things that people see first. And, um, I think I want to acknowledge just how disabling it can be to have a mental illness sometimes. So um yeah, I probably started identifying as disabled a few years ago now, um. But, yeah, after a long, long stretch to get there, I finally got my diagnosises. And then that led me down the path to identifying, and a feminist oh, gosh, I’ve been a feminist my whole life, I think. 

L: Yeah

R: From I always say that Lisa Simpson was my gateway into feminism, because she was, she was the most accessible feminist to me, she was the one that was the outcast in her family that was always saying, you know, hang on, what about this? And isn’t that questionable? And shouldn’t we be thinking about that? So, so yeah, that’s, that’s sort of where I see it very far to the left.

L: And I guess I definitely with the left and right, I will definitely want to get to that. But before we do, I wondered if you can kind of give us you know, for the listeners who may not kind of know much about what intersectionality means, or how it can affect someone’s life. Can you kind of explain in maybe with an example or something? How having those different identities and your kind of unique identity with all of those communities you belong to, how does that affect your life?

R: Intersectionality I see, um. So I kind of see, when you are born, and you’re given a life, you kind of have I use a quilt as a metaphor, a blanket. And some people just have one or two patches on that quilt, and other people have, you know, an entire space filled with different patches, and some of them overlap, and some of them are bigger than others. And that kind of, um, is a way to have a visual representation of how these levels of what we call intersectionality fit in with each other. And it doesn’t mean that one blanket is is more beautiful than the other it just means different things, you know, um, it means different layers is the way that I put it. Um and so the second part of your question was… how they impact me. You know, the first thing that comes to mind when I want to answer that question is how lucky I am. Because I, I have had the pleasure of knowing and spending time with such a different range of people. Um, you know, from someone who is experiencing, um, they might not have secure housing, and um, they feel comfortable chatting with me, and I might meet them for a couple of minutes on public transport or, you know, having an identity, that means I feel comfortable talking to everyone from the person who might not have a home to the Prime Minister, I’d quite happily talk to the Prime Minister. In fact, I’d probably say quite a few things to any politician that would listen to me. But so I feel like that intersectionality has given me the chance to have not exposure, but get a glimpse into the life of so many different kinds of people. Um, so that’s the first thing that it brings me. Um, unfortunately, because of the society and the kind of way that our society is structured at the moment, that means that I don’t always get not what’s fair, what’s equitable. So, for a long time, even I was not sure what the difference between equality and equity is. Um, and I kind of see it, as you know, equality being everyone gets the same, and equity being, everyone gets what they need. So I don’t want to say I’m at the bottom of the ladder. [Renay laughs]. But I’m pretty far down on the pecking order in terms of that. And so that has meant that for the majority of my life, I’ve been poor, not—physically poor, and emotionally rich. But you know, it’s a, I think it’s a really important thing to recognise how, how much lack of resources and poverty can impact on someone’s life. So.

L: Absolutely. And I, for those listeners who missed maybe season one I actually talked with one of my guests, Julie was talking about her experience as a disabled girl who grew up in a poor family and how that really impacted her entire journey because she didn’t have access to medical treatments, 

R: Yep

L: or that equipment that she might have otherwise have had. Now, can you tell us about your art practice? What do you do?

R: I like to call myself a black of all trades because I, I [Renay laughs] can’t make I don’t like committing to one particular thing, probably one thing that I have a very, very great love for, is creating clothing or costumes, or, I don’t know, I don’t like calling myself a sewer because it looks like I’m calling myself a sewer. When you just write it online. Um, you know, the big passion I have for clothing, it comes from a desire to express who I am on the inside on the outside. So when I put together an outfit, it’s not you know, what’s functional, or, I mean, that does impact it too. But it’s it’s coming from an expressive part of me so, but I also love painting. Painting, I’ve done it in secret for a long time. 

L: Why in secret? 

R: Well, for the first little while, it’s probably because more of a felt more secretive, because it was only something I got to do every now and again. So because of again, because of poverty, I didn’t get to sort of go to the after school art classes or do those things. Um. And then when I was at school, and I was doing all these, you know, I had access to all these different resources. I would do a sculpture one day, and then a pencil drawing the next day. And I felt the the common thread between all my work was me. It didn’t need to be a style or a colour or whatever it is. And so when I was doing all these different, different artworks and different styles, I had a an art teacher that said something to me, that, um, impacted me for gosh, the next 20 years of my life or almost 20 years. When I think back to it, I think obviously the young girl that heard this was in a very bad place. And I I can see that, but for a long time it stopped me calling myself an artist because he said you’re never going to be a good one if you don’t pick a style and stick with it. 

L: That’s horrible. 

R: Yes, and it was it was somebody that I actually really respected at the time too. It was someone that, I didn’t have a lot of adults in my life that were stable and so to have one that was stable, so something to me that I felt, you know, it never been a problem up until then I could do, you know, make an outfit one day and then paint the next day, it was just like I said, that commonality was me. Um. And so when he told me I was like, Oh, what, like, what? [Renay laughs] What? Does that mean I’m not allowed to call myself an artist because I, you know, at the end of year art school, sorry, end of year art show, I don’t have six paintings in a series that reflect through each of them. Um, and, you know, looking back now, I think that’s a product of my environment, I was a product of my environment, I didn’t have that stability. So I couldn’t produce in that. I couldn’t produce artworks that were all the same, because I was coming from such, um, turbulence. And so yeah, when he told me this it, it may, it took away my confidence in calling myself an artist.

L: Of course, absolutely, I think it’s really important to acknowledge as well that your output as an artist was different because of what you were going through. And that makes sense, but also to acknowledge that, that doesn’t make you less of an artist. And I think I was actually going to talk to you about this, the sense of, you know, all these rules around what art looks like and should look like. And I think that those can really act as gatekeepers, 

R: Yeah

L: And that is just a perfect example of that, you know, I see that in poetry so much, you know, if it doesn’t kind of subscribe to a certain way of writing and presenting then it’s not considered or people don’t see it as poetry. And I think that’s from my perspective, I feel that that those are really gatekeeping kind of methods.

R: And that, you know, really interesting in that it happens in so many communities because for a long while, that’s why I didn’t identify as disabled, because I thought no, I’m not. I’m not that. I’m not what I’m seeing represented. And yeah, so so, gatekeep-y. gatekeeping, for anybody listening, who maybe doesn’t know what gatekeeping is, it’s like people build a stereotype of what, you know, an artist should be. An artist should be a person who paints paintings, and, you know, does sculpture, whereas an artist can be someone who creates an outfit, for example. So there’s that, preventing someone from identifying because they don’t fit a particular set of rules, or actions or attributes that they that someone thinks they should, should have. And yes, it’s, it’s really damaging, because I, um. When people gatekeep and keep others from a community, people lose that support that a community can bring.

L: And also from the other hand, I think that we also lose the richness of what our art culture can look like, and what our communities can look like, because we don’t value that art made by people who are left out of those kinds of gates or those rules. And often, those people are people from multiple kind of minorities, you know, who navigate intersectionality. So, I’m curious, you know, we talked about poetry for the fir- when we met in real life, we talked about poetry

R: Yes

L: and you identify as a poet and so am I, and, you know, I was wondering, when you started writing poetry, and when you actually started calling yourself a poet?

R: Well, see that’s, that was like, the, the final frontier for me. Because I feel like poets are devalued, so much in our society. You know, and especially in the age of the internet, where access to people’s words is so easy. So that value of of expression that comes through, as you know, as a poet, it’s I think people devalue it. And I think that’s probably why it took me the longest, um, to identify the poet. It’s probably only in the last, like, two years, maybe two or three years. And so what am I? I’m 30, So I wrote my first poem when I was about seven, if I do my math correctly, seven or eight. 

L: Yeah. 

R: I think my mom held on to it, which was really lovely. When after, after she passed, I was going through things and I found it and thought, Oh, this is, you know, I haven’t seen this in 25 years. 

L: Wow

R: So yeah, it took me a good 25 years to identify from writing that first poem. I think it was about my family and how much I love them or something like that. But from that point, it took me a very long time to identify as a poet and a writer as well.

L: Yeah, I had the same experience I wrote my first poem when I probably when I first learned to write, and then yeah only in the last few years, I’ve started identifying as a poet. And definitely, I think a part of it is because of the poetry that I was exposed to was always very narrow definition of what poetry is and can be. And only the last few years, I’ve been exposed to all kinds of poetry, um, and started writing with so much more freedom, 

R: Yeah 

L: which is such an amazing feeling, very big relief. And with that, I’m wondering if I can there’s one of your poems that I love it and it’s called, I Want To Buy a Ford Capri. [Renay laughs]. And I just loved it. But I’m wondering if you don’t mind me reading the last three stanzas. Is that okay?

R: Absolutely. Go for it.

L: Okay. Ahh! There it is, freedom, I desire freedom. I sat and typed and pondered, yes, I enjoy the nice things about the car. But it’s the freedom, the freedom, it’s not suitable to carry a wheelchair. It’s not right for baby seats, it’s right to take me where I want to go, on my own to where I need. So I want to buy a Ford Capri and drive it to the beach, stay and watch the sunset, and then get fish and chips for tea. I want to touch the ocean with my feet, and feel the space around me. And if I drive my Ford Capri, I don’t have to say please. [mouse clicking]. I just love that. Such a powerful ending.

R: It’s that that’s so cool. I’ve never heard anybody else read my poetry. And so to hear my words reflected through somebody else. That’s really Oh, it’s really confronting in a good way. But it’s like, wow [Liel laughs]. I know exactly where it comes from, you know, and that’s, and that, that line that you started with, Ah, there it is. I had written a poem. And I was, it’s sometimes it’s so hard to put into words what it means, what the poem is about. And then it came to me like a light bulb moment, that was what I was drea-, because I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a Ford Capri. But they’re, um, they look like Mario Kart cars. And you know, I’d spent all night dreaming about putting little, you know, lace details on it and doing the seats up and thinking about it and thinking about why I why I wanted this car. And then it was like, aha, I you know, I’ve excised that demon because well, whatever that was, because I finally got to the moment of that, that’s where it is. And I think that’s why poetry is such an important, um an important thing, because it can for me, it can be almost stream of consciousness of writing. And then you know, to be able to have someone’s all not unfiltered, but free flowing thought and get that little. And I mean, I hope that people can understand when they read that last little part, what, imagine themselves going to the beach and imagine the freedom of what it means to have that and be able to do that. Yeah.

[Theme song plays in background]

L: definitely. And I love how accessible your poetry is. We haven’t talked about it, actually before in a lot of details, but we actually both contributors to the anthology that was recently published by Black Inc called, We’ve Got This, and that’s about stories by Disabled Parents. That’s, part of the title. And I’m wondering, I’ve been as I’ve been reading it, I’ve been reflecting on how being a parent can influence our art and our writing. And I’ve been kind of pondering, you know, how is that for you? The experience of parenting and creating art, what is that? How do they go together? If at all? How do they influence each other? 

R: It’s a great question. Um. 

L: Thank you. 

R: For a long time, I wanted to be a parent. From a very young age, I knew I wanted to be a parent. So I think in some ways before I became a parent, it was reflected. I was that sort of desire was reflected in my work, um. And then they’re such, they’re fountains of inspiration. I think it’s just firstly, before I go off on that tangent, um, We’ve Got This is reading it has been such an experience because obviously, you know, um, I kind of knew a little bit about your story and some other people’s stories, but, um, seeing the commonality between, um, you know, because I was a parent before I identified as disabled, 

L: Same. 

R: and, um, then that difference in that shifting of understanding, um, has been amazing. So I’m so I’m so proud to be in this book, I will tell everybody that will listen. You know, my children are my, my, the thing I love to talk about the most. So and you know, initially they do become this great fountain of inspiration, because they’re, is there anything more beautiful than looking at a child who’s asleep in your arms? And I think it’s the greatest privilege in the world to be able to hold such a fragile and unprotected being and be be a safe space for them. Like, it’s if you could bottle that feeling, I’m sure we could solve a lot of the world’s problems. But so you know, they become this fountain of inspiration. But now, now, um, that my eldest child is getting older, he just turned 14. I’m finding myself wanting to collaborate with them on artistic ventures, because, um, I just think they’re a really cool person. [Renay laughs]. 

L: Yeah. 

R: you know, being able to take that next step to go, Hey, I’ve got this idea, um, you know, how about we talk about it? And how about we explore that and, you know, this, it’s a kind of a relationship that you can only have with someone that you’ve, not necessarily that you’ve parented, but that you’ve had some really close connection with. And so it’s really nice to have that back and forth of like, not having to explain yourself, or saying, hey, remember that one random time that we did that thing, and then you know, they can remember

L: That’s a very fantastic experience, I can’t wait for my kids to be old enough for that. We do have little collaborations, but you know, my eldest is only, not even four. So our collaborations are a bit of like, just glue everywhere. 

R: Yeah. 

L: And do you talk to them about kind of intersectionality, or your identities, what it means, any of that?

R: All the time. it’s one thing that I didn’t have any experience about. In terms of intersectionality, I don’t identify as, I identify as cisgendered, and heterosexual. So, you know, I don’t have those other layers of intersectionality, as well. Um, and so being mindful not only to talk about my experience of being disabled, and a woman, but also making sure that they’re aware of intersectionalities that come with other identities as well. So yeah, I talk about. I talk about it with them a lot. And, you know, especially in terms of gender expression, both of my children identify as non-binary, so being able to give them the language to know that they can say that or, you know, being proud in their, their cultural heritage, as well. Yeah, from from the moment they can hear me, I talked to them about it, because, you know, that’s my experience. And I, I want them to know why Mom’s getting upset because the wheelchair doesn’t, you know, I can’t get on this tram because the wheelchair doesn’t fit on it, or I want them to know the reality. But also understand how it impacts our life.

L: And that’s one of the benefits of having, you know, a parent who’s kind of multiply marginalised, you know, having that understanding and expressing that to children. I think there’s no one better to do that, than you. And they are no doubt growing up to become much more kind of open minded and inclusive in their thinking than our generation has ever been.

R: Yeah. It’s mind blowing. There’s one really quick story I have to tell you. When, you know, we played a lot of video games, as a family, we play a lot of video games, and they often have the trope of saving the princess or, you know, the princess needing to be saved. And I overheard a conversation that my big child had when they were about eight or nine. And you know, they were playing with their friends and their friends were saying something about oh, no, we’ve captured the princess and Big leaned in and said, you may have captured her but you will never own her. 

L: Ohhh. 

R: I had to keep myself from from like, bursting in there and being so proud of him because it was just like, Yes, I’m raising a little feminist. He doesn’t even know.

L: Yeah, that’s very impressive for that age. And I really think we can kind of be leaders in I guess, providing an example of how you can have these conversations with children, because so much of the time, I think in mainstream society and culture, it’s been seen as like, something that we should protect children from, or something like that, these kind of issues, and they’re so important from a young age. So, yeah, I recently bought my kids, this book that has a disabled kid as a protagonist. And it was, it’s kind of started such great conversations together. And I actually use social media for that benefit actually showing my kid kind of pictures of people that look, you know, in, I guess, quote, unquote, different from what they used to seeing on the streets so that they get used to that, and we talk about it in a really kind of open way, which I just absolutely love. Because I didn’t have that growing up.

R: Yes, and to be able to see diversity, um, and to see people’s self-controlled narrative. Well, as much as you can control your narrative on social media, but people’s own expression of that, and own voices. And yeah, going straight to the horse’s mouth, so to speak,

L: Yeah, actually showed my kid the other day, someone, we were talking about people with no hands. And this is a conversation. And I showed him one of the people that I follow, who doesn’t, who has a limb difference in her arms. And um, we talked about, you know, and there was a photo that she kind of posted with, and one of them, she holds a book about disability, with, you know, we kind of one with a hand missing and the other hand, and my, my kid was like, talking about it. And he’s only less than four. And it’s like, why is she happy? [Renay laughs]. What, she’s happy, you know. But those I think, underneath that was maybe he’s kind of kind of slowly thinking about what it means to be disabled and proud and be open to the world and, and be happy, even though your limb might be quote, unquote, missing.

R: It’s, it’s really lovely, um, to know. See their little brains ticking over and thinking, and all those, yeah, I’m such a nerd, all those neural pathways opening up and thinking, you know, what does that really mean? And that’s kind of in terms of disability. That’s, um, one thing that we’ve spoken about with our children, because they have disabilities themselves. I don’t know if they’d identify as disabled yet. But it’s their journey, so it’s not up to me, but letting them know that in our society, there’s a lot of expectation that we want to meet a certain criteria, like, the assumption for happiness is that everyone’s going to have, you know, two legs, two arms, 10 toes, whatever. And that there’s a lot of pressure to try and attain those things or attain as close as possible to those to be happy. Whereas like you say, it’s possible to be happy and have no, you know, have no traditionally framed limbs or, you know, to have a limb difference is the way that I would put it. But the other the flip side of that is sometimes now, like I said, as Big’s getting older, they’re coming to me and saying, but hang on, why, why does the world exist this way? And how can people have let it get to that point? Yeah, that’s when social media comes in handy. And I get out, and I say, Oh, well, this person’s challenging it. And you know, this person is, it’s not all, it’s not all dire.

L: And I’m wondering as well, I was gonna ask you, as you bring up that point, what do you think is the relationship for you, between arts and politics? You know, you’ve actually recently posted something on social media and it read, disabled black woman, I’ve always lived with consequence of public policy. I am political, just by existing. So what is the relationship for you between your art practice, and politics? 

R: I—like I said, I’m political just by existing because other people have the majority of control over my life. Um, people who determine how much money I live with, what resources I have. And so any narrative I’m in control of, is political, is me, my chance to say, this is wrong, or this is right, or this is, you know, it’s my chance to put out there what I feel. I don’t, I think art is inherently political, because art is a reflection of society and society is what makes up policy and you know, who is impacted by policy. So I think all those things are inextricably linked. I think you’re definitely only the people who are not impacted by the policies negatively are the people who say that things aren’t political, in my, that’s, in my opinion, um, it’s something that the art reflects. And if we don’t fund the arts in the way that they should be, or if we don’t place importance on the arts in the way, like, like you say, poetry is, you know, the majority of poetry that you get exposed to is very, there’s a lot of it, of one style. And we don’t get exposed to more because, you know, the, I can’t make a living as a poet. And I think that’s one of the problems that the arts needs more supporting in and because what do we learn from poetry that in? Or art in general? What do we learn from art that influences our lives? That changes our mind that makes that connection? You know? Yeah.

L: So as I was going through your stuff I found this, um, one illustration that I came across before, which was kind of, um, an illustration of two hands towards each other and there’s text I think above or on the left, and then under that illustration. And the text read, okay one of the, the text I think at the top, read: respect is free. And underneath it said: so don’t be a fucker.

R: Yeah [Renay laughs]. 

L: Love that. Because the hands are so, for people that obviously, listeners who can’t see it, the hands are really kind of delicate-looking and they have nail polish on them and then, this, the word, kind of really jumps out at you from the illustration, which I love. Can you tell me about that, like what’s inspiration for that? 

R: Um, I have always been fascinated at the juxtaposition between femininity and roughness. And femininity and brashness. And that it seems that, um, society has a hard time combining the two. I can’t be, a woman who wears lace and also says fuck, when in reality, that’s me. I lov — you know I will wear a pink tutu, and swear like a sailor because that’s my expression of me, so, um, it kind of almost leads into the toxic positivity of, you know, everything will be okay, and um, I don’t see colour, or I don’t see disability, or um, that sort of erasure of anything negative. Um, and then yeah, that punch of like, you’re a fucker. Cause that, sometimes in world, you know, I, I don’t consider myself a linguist but I certainly love words and I love using them and telling stories, but sometimes there’s no better word than a swear word. It’s punchy, and it’s so expressive and it’s so universally understood, um, even if you might not know the word, you understand the feeling, um, and so this, this, just—juxtaposition, especially, you know, and I think, I believe one hand is, um, in the illustration, one is a bit darker than the other, so one is darker skinned and one of sort of lighter skinned, um. And yeah, speaks to this narrative of, um, Black women always being angry if they’re outspoken, um, you know, in situations where other people would be perceived as being forward-thinking or assertive, it’s like as soon as it comes out of a Black women, you’re hysterical and, you know, that’s, you’re written off and your anger is written off, um, and I, I love the idea of people having their own definition of what being a fucker is. I just love that so much, it’s it’s something that’s spoken to me since I was a little girl, of you know, wanting to wear lace and florals and very, and just just being this very lou—, cause I’m I’m, I try to tone it down sometimes, but I am a loud person. I am opinionated, I talk a lot and it, I can’t, I can’t separate those two elements, so. 

L: They’re part of you and I think that’s such a fantastic, illustration of that, and a really incredible way to kind of, actually, challenge, what it means to be, you. What it means to be a Black disabled woman. And being able to be who you are fully and without that being written off or minimised or, um, just ignored completely or, um, gaslighted. 

R: Yeah

L: So, you know, I think that’s a fantastic, kind of ending, that I, this is what I wish for our society, and for you and for all of us who navigate, kind of multiple diverse identities that we can be fully who we are and that being safe, because it’s important to acknowledge that sometimes, um, it’s really unsafe, like you said, um. 

R: Yes

L: So hopefully, in spaces like these that we are creating ourselves in between the unsafe places, we can change that. 

R: Yes absolutely. I, I mean it’s always good to know, to have on record that feminism doesn’t have to be, subscribed to one particular thing. The great thing about feminism is that you get the choice. Everybody gets the choice and all of those choices are equally valid, so what is their name? Alok? Alok Vaid-Menon? Do you know them?

L: Yes

R: Yes, amazing, amazing poet, and just amazing all-around person, but I saw them talking about how, I mean obviously I’m paraphrasing, but their goal in life is to give everybody the peace of respecting themselves, and, and knowing yeah, knowing their worth. And really knowing their worth, like, and so I think that’s what I, as soon as I heard that, I was like, yeah that’s that’s putting into words exactly what I’m, I’m going for. 

L: I love that. But before we go, can you share, um, where people can find you and your work. 

R: I, you can go to my website. I have a website. I believe it’s firstnationsfeminist.com

L: It is. 

R: Which I should probably double check [Renay laughs]. Thank you. I am doing a couple of speaking gigs, but generally, just, hit me up on Instagram, firstnations_feminist. And hit me up. Or if you want to see me ranting, I do rant on Twitter @fnfeminist. There’s a lot o swears, just as a warning. There’s a lot of swears in the Twitter, so. 

[Theme music starts playing]

L: That’s okay. Well we’ll put it all in the show notes as well for people. Thank you so much Renay for coming to (Un)marginalised 

R: My pleasure. 

L: Before we go, a grateful thanks to the City of Melbourne Arts Grant 2022 for supporting this episode and the entire second season of the (Un)marginalised Podcast. I would also like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this episode was produced, the Boon Wurroung people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging. As we tell our stories, I want to highlight that traditional owners if this land have been storytellers for generations. If you enjoyed or learned something from the episode, please rate, review and share it with a curious person in your life. 

[Theme music fades out].